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From $2K to $200K/Month: The Post-Purchase Upsell System with Nizar Abdul-Halim ($100M+ in Ad Spend)

Published on: 13th April, 2026

Most brands doing $1M/month are pulling $2K from their post-purchase funnel.

Nizar Abdul-Halim comes in and turns that into $100K to $200K. Same brand. Same traffic. Same products.

That's not a tweak. That's a profit center that was sitting there the entire time, completely ignored.

Nizar has been in ecommerce for almost a decade. He's run his own stores, built and sold an ad agency, and deployed over $100M in paid ad spend (at one point, $2.5M a month). Today his entire focus is what happens right after someone buys, and he's built the infrastructure to prove it's one of the most leveraged plays in ecom.

In this episode, we get into the full post-purchase system: how it works, how to test it, and why most brands are leaving 10 to 15% of their revenue on the table at gross margin.

What you'll learn in this episode:

  • Why post-purchase revenue hits different (it's all gross margin, meaning it drops straight to profit)
  • How Nizar structures funnels for one-time buyers vs. returning customers, and why the messaging is completely different
  • Why he always upsells the most expensive product first (and why conversion rates go up down the funnel, not down)
  • The metric most brands track wrong: RPV vs. PPV (Profit Per Visit)
  • His 5-bucket testing framework: products, pricing and offers, angles and copy, UI, and segmentation
  • How advanced brands build 15 to 20 separate customer journeys inside a single post-purchase setup
  • The quick win you can do this week using Shopify Sidekick to find your best upsell product in 10 minutes

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

00:34 How Nizar discovered post-purchase as the real growth lever

01:28 Why break-even brands can become cash flow positive on day one

06:46 The moment he shut down the ad agency and went all-in

09:27 What founders actually misunderstand about post-purchase

12:00 How success metrics change depending on the business model

16:07 One-time buyer strategy vs. returning customer strategy

18:35 What post-purchase should realistically contribute at your revenue level

21:28 The 3 layers: cart, checkout, and post-purchase (and the job of each)

26:04 Addressing the "won't this make my brand look cheap?" concern

29:50 How post-purchase works for premium brands that won't discount

31:20 RPV vs. PPV: why tracking the wrong metric kills your profit

34:22 Why the most expensive upsell goes first (with the data behind it)

36:35 How to price a post-purchase sequence for an $80 AOV supplement brand

41:42 The 5-bucket testing framework Nizar uses across 80+ brands

44:40 Advanced segmentation: building multiple customer journeys at scale

49:27 The 10-minute quick win using Shopify Sidekick

Connect with Nizar:

Website: https://www.simpliscaled.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nizar-abdul-halim

YouTube: Nizar Abdul-Halim

Instagram: @nizarabdulhalim_

Twitter/X: @EcomNizar

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More episodes: https://ecomgrowthinsider.com

Ecom Growth Insider is a podcast for e-commerce founders and operators serious about building profitable brands. No fluff, no theory. Just what actually works at scale.

Transcript

1

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Welcome back to Ecom Growth

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Insider, the show where

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we actually break down what's

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working to scale ecommerce

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brands profitably.

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Today's guest is Nizar,

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Abdul Haleem.

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A guy who's been in E Comm

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for almost a decade, has

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built multiple 7 figure E

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commerce brands and spent

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over $100 million on paid

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ads for his brands and

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clients.

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But what he's obsessed

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with now isn't paid ads.

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It's what happens right after

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the customer clicks to buy.

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Because if you break even or

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even losing money on the

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first order, Nizar shows you

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how post purchase funnels can

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flip your entire unit

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economics by increasing AOV

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and first order profit

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without even touching your

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front end conversion rate.

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In this episode, we go deep

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on his exact system.

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The three layers

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of liquidation.

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Why upsells are a logical yes

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and not an emotional one.

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Why he starts with the most

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expensive offer first.

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And how he tests in five

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buckets to scale revenue

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per visit and more

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importantly, profit per visit.

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If you run a Shopify brand

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and you want to unlock

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a real margin without

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increasing the ad spend,

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this one is a must.

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Let's dive in.

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Hi Nizar.

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Excited to have you on.

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Likewise.

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Thank you for thank you

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for hitting me up man.

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I know it's been a long time

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in the making and I

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obviously been moving around

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a lot but hopefully now we can

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hop on this and give

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some people some value.

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Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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I mean You've built multiple

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seven figure brands before.

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You spend more than

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25 million on ads.

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I think probably

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way more by now.

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And you're obsessed with what

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happens after the checkout.

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What was the moment where

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you realized that post

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purchase was the growth

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lever for brands?

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Yeah, I mean to give you

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some context, I mean obviously

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like you said, I've been

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in E Comm for almost

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a decade now, ran up my own

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stores, ran an ad agency.

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We spent over 100 million

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on ads over

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the last couple years.

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I mean up until like a couple

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months ago, we were even

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spending close to two

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and a half million a month.

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So I mean that alone is

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pretty decent, I

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would say volume wise.

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But the idea of post

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purchase isn't new.

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It isn't something that

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we just found out about.

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Like ever since I was

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running my own stores, it

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was kind of like a default

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thing everyone did.

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Like you just set

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up a post purchase funnel.

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Now the actual attention to

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detail that went into

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building a post purchase

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funnel, that's the thing that

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changed because like before,

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we would just set it up, like

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put random offers, like

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anything just to get like a

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little bit more, even $5 more

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and call it a day.

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But the reality is, is like

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when I started to work with

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a lot of these bigger

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brands, like brands that are

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spending 50, 60, 70, 100k a

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day on Facebook, we started

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to realize that yes, we're

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willing to lose money on

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acquisition or break even,

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especially if you're a

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supplement brand.

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Almost everybody I know who's

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doing over a million dollars

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a month on a supplement

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brand is running break even

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or at a loss on the front

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end and then they recoup all

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of it on the back end,

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whether the back end be the

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subscriptions because that's

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where they're getting the

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majority of the revenue, or

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email marketing for the non

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subscribers, etc.

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What we found is when we came

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in and built post purchase

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funnels and actually you

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know, gave this channel the

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attention it deserved when it

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came to like proper split

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testing, genuinely taking

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this seriously, we were able

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to not only offset the like

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break even or loss on the

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front end like we were, there

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was points where we were

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actually profitable.

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So it changed the Entire

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dynamic of the business.

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Because, you know, Initially

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someone's spending 35,

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$40 or let's say $60

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to acquire a $50 subscription.

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They're losing $10 plus COGS

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on the first order.

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They have an LTV of three

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to four months.

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That's how they're

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making their money.

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Now we can make them back $10

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from the funnels.

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And now all of a sudden,

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they went from

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losing to making money.

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Which means on, you know, if

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we're, if they're doing, you

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know, 50, 60, 100k a day,

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that could be easily like

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15,000 or whatever, 10,000

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orders a day or whatever the

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number is.

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Right.

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So in that case, you know,

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they can not only recoup

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it, but now they're cash

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flow positive day one.

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Or if they're at a loss,

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they can get to break even.

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Or in general, like, this

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doesn't work for subscriptions

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pretty much everybody.

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But the reality is, is that we

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kind of saw that on one

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of the brands we were running.

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So we did it on another

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one and it worked.

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Did another one and it worked.

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And then we were like,

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okay, let's see if

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people pay for this.

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So then I started posting

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about it on Twitter.

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I had one guy, his name

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is Frank Gabriel.

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He's one of the first people

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that reached out to me.

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We set it up for him.

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He was one of our first

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ever case studies as well.

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We crushed it for him.

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He told all his friends,

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they were all doing like

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eight, nine figures.

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They all came in and very

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slowly, very quickly, sorry.

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The business grew and it became

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basically way bigger

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than what we do now,

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what we used to do with ads.

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And now, like I said, we got

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like, you know, 80 plus

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brands are doing post purchase

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for most of them are

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in like the 1 to 5 million.

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We have some people doing

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10 million, 15 million,

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$20 million a month.

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And post purchase is like

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a huge lever for them now

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more than ever because

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CPMs keep going up.

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So they have to figure out

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ways to come combat, like

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the higher CPAs that they're

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getting on Facebook.

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Not just Facebook, any

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platform, but I mean,

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Facebook's the biggest

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spending one.

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So, yeah, I mean, long

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story short, we.

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There was a problem.

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I figured out this

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was a solution.

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We spent a year and a half

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testing across hundreds

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of stores until we

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became the best at it.

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And now, I mean, even

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the software after sell,

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they send us, you know,

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eight and nine figure

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brands all the time.

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So, you know, they sent us

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like partnerships like true

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classic, some of the other

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ones you see on my page,

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like huge, huge, huge.

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Like multi nine figure brands.

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And yeah, I mean it's kind of

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just kind of went from there.

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Yeah, I mean that's amazing.

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And I know so many brands that

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would kill for like to be

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profitable on the first order

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or at least to break even.

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Because yeah, as you

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mentioned, especially in

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the supplement industry and

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especially if you want to

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scale fast, pretty much

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every brand loses a lot of

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money on the customer

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acquisition and then if

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they're lucky, they make it

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back after maybe 30 days.

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For some it's even

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60 or 90 days.

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And obviously that puts a lot

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of risk on the business, leads

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to a lot of cash flow issues.

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Like they can't scale up

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the ad spend as fast as

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they would like to because

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they will always need to

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wait those 60 days, 90

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days until the customer

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comes back.

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And if you then can plug

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something in that makes sure

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that the customer is

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profitable right away, that's

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like life changing for them.

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Yeah, I mean that's also

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a big thing as well.

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Like email marketing is very

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important, don't get me wrong.

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But the problem with email

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marketing is that it pays

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you back in like 60 days or

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30 days, versus when you do

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this, you get paid back now

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and in 30 and 60 days from

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emails.

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So it doesn't hinder emails.

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If anything it does better

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because when you email your

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existing customers or

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customers that didn't

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convert the first time,

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they're coming in even

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warmer, they're going to

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convert higher on those

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funnels.

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So what we've seen is the ltv,

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the lifetime LTV of a customer

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goes up by like 50 to 100%.

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When you have these funnels

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set up properly, where day

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one you're making 15, 20%

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more AOV, but then day 60,

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when they come back from an

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email and they've already

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tried your product and liked

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it, if you have the proper

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funnel for that now, their

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AOV is going to be double

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what it would have been.

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So that's also a big key part

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that people don't really think

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about because everybody's

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focused on front end.

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They just need to scale front

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end as much as possible.

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No one's really thinking

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about the back end.

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They have all the other

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stuff that gives them a

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little bit of money here

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and there, but like

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nothing is going to beat

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post purchase on the front

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end on day one.

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As soon as somebody purchases

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to bump the AOV and increase

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the profit per order,

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then post purchase follows.

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Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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What Was the moment where

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like, did you have a moment

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where it was like, holy

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shit, this is where I have

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to go all in on this.

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This is what really

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prints money.

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Or was it like slowly through,

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like testing it on like

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a bunch of different brands?

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Yeah, I mean, I would say

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the popularity

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is very low still.

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I don't think anybody

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really is doing it.

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There's only one guy who ripped

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my entire website and is

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trying to do what I'm doing.

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But you know, he can convince

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people, but he can't

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get them the same results.

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Other than that, like, there

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was low competition obviously.

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But the biggest thing was once

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I cracked it and I realized

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how quick it could be ROI

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positive, like from an ad

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agency perspective, like

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maybe if you're lucky, you

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onboard a client in the first

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month, you crush it for them,

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you scale up, spend,

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everything's great.

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But that's not

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usually how it goes.

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You know, it's usually

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a couple months or at least

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like a month or two

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of proper testing to crack

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a winning ad and scale.

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Now some people do it faster,

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they have better teams,

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some people do it longer.

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That's like, you know, we can

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argue about that all day but.

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But the reality is that

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that's what happens.

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So, you know, before it was

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very much like a, you know,

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two to six month ROI play

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with a client where they're

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going to work with us, we're

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going to scale them up and

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we do.

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But again, it takes time.

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With this, it was a service

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that I'm providing where,

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you know, within,

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with our systems, within 24

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hours, they're ROI positive.

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So from a client kind

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of relationship standpoint,

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it's like way better

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for me than what I was doing.

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So that's kind of like

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the biggest like, aha moment

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where I was like, like I need

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to just let, let go

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of everything, just do this.

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So that's what

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initially did it.

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And then the second thing is

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like we worked our offer quite

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a bit and we ended up with

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a, performance only offer.

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And that's been absolutely

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crushing as well.

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So it is more lucrative,

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but at the same time it

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requires a different type

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of focus than what we were

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doing with the ads.

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So with the ads, like, it

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was a lot of like creating

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research and creatives

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and stuff like that.

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With this, it's more like

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human psychology and trying

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to understand like why

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somebody's buying and how can

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we kind of position this

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other product in a logical

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way for them to take it and

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then testing different

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prices, different copies.

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So it's like Kind

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of the same thing.

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Although the, that you feel

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the effects of it right away.

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Like if I launch a funnel

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and it does well, tomorrow

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we're making more money.

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Not, you know, in six

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months or three months.

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Like tomorrow we'll

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go from $5 to $20.

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Yeah, the feedback

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loop is crazy fast.

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And I assume based on that

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you can improve and learn.

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Improve the funnel

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just way faster.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And you mentioned that it's

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still a pretty untapped

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market and I think a lot of

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brands and a lot of

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founders still don't have

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it on their radar and don't

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spend enough time and

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effort to improve the post

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purchase funnel.

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Like what do you think, what

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do the founders misunderstand

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about post purchase?

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I don't necessarily think

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they misunderstand.

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I think they just are way

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too focused and rightfully so

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on the front end.

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Because without the front

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end, the back end

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doesn't even exist.

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So we have to kind of

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put that out first and make

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sure everybody knows.

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I'm not saying that post

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purchase files are more

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important than your ads.

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Obviously without ads you

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will have no money to make

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in the post purchase.

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However, you know, it's, it's

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a neglected part because like

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it only generates 10

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to 15% more revenue.

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But when you think about

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the fact that that 10 to

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15% is at your gross

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margin, that's when it

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becomes interesting and

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that's what people don't

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really think about.

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Now the other thing as

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well is that they are

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already investing

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in ads, they're investing

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in CRO, they're investing

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in creatives,

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they're doing Google,

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they're doing emails.

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Nobody's really doing this.

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Like there was no provider,

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there was the apps like after

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Cell, ocu, etc, they come

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in, they set it up for you

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one time and then they leave.

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But again like if it's not

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required, if they're not

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doing continuous testing,

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you're just ending up back

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at square one, which is

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basically, you know, you

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have a half decent funnel

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and that's about it.

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And that's not necessarily

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what we're doing.

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What we're doing is like

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CRO on the back end.

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So we're constantly testing

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stuff every single week, split

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testing pricing, products,

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angles, copy funnel, segments,

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like pretty much everything

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every single week.

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And I think with a lot of

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the founders out there, they

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just didn't really think

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of it as like a channel that

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can generate much money.

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Like I've, I've audited

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so many accounts.

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Like we work now like I

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said with like 40, 50 plus

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::

brands are doing

529

::

over a million a month.

530

::

All those people when they

531

::

came to us would do a million

532

::

dollars a month on the front

533

::

end and make like 2k from

534

::

their post purchase funnels

535

::

because they were set up by

536

::

either like an email

537

::

marketing agency six months

538

::

ago when they onboarded them

539

::

or like OCU or aftercell just

540

::

kind of turned on.

541

::

Like they just turned

542

::

like the AI funnel or

543

::

whatever that is and they're

544

::

making 2k a month.

545

::

I come in, build a funnel,

546

::

all of a sudden they're

547

::

making 100k, 200k a month

548

::

from this right away

549

::

and they're like holy shit.

550

::

Like why don't we

551

::

not do this before?

552

::

So definitely every time I do

553

::

onboard someone and we do this

554

::

for them, they realize

555

::

like holy, like I've been

556

::

sleeping on this for so long.

557

::

Yeah.

558

::

You mentioned before like the,

559

::

the goal is for, for you or

560

::

one of the goals is to,

561

::

to liquidate the, the customer

562

::

acquisition cost at checkout.

563

::

In general, like for you,

564

::

what are the like the success

565

::

criteria that look

566

::

for that you look for when

567

::

you set up like a new

568

::

post purchase funnel.

569

::

So it all depends

570

::

on the business model

571

::

on the front end.

572

::

So not everybody is

573

::

running at break even.

574

::

So like for example we work

575

::

with other people that don't

576

::

sell supplements and not

577

::

don't have subscriptions.

578

::

Like people that sell like

579

::

home decor items or

580

::

clothing or stuff that's

581

::

not on subscription.

582

::

Like they have to be

583

::

profitable day one.

584

::

So people like that,

585

::

we're more so focused

586

::

on what are the actual goals

587

::

the business have.

588

::

Some of them have so many

589

::

skus but they only sell two

590

::

so the rest are all like

591

::

dead stock that

592

::

they need to get rid of.

593

::

Okay, cool.

594

::

How can we use post purchase

595

::

to liquidate all of the dead

596

::

stock at you know, decent

597

::

margins so we don't have to

598

::

run ads to it later a

599

::

clearance section and lose

600

::

money for a month just to

601

::

get rid of it.

602

::

Right.

603

::

So because it also what people

604

::

don't think about is that it

605

::

also costs brand owners money

606

::

to just have inventory parked.

607

::

Like if they're using

608

::

three PLs, they're

609

::

paying storage fees.

610

::

If they're not, they're just

611

::

losing money on the money

612

::

they invested into that stock

613

::

if they're not selling it.

614

::

So that's like one way.

615

::

And another way for example

616

::

would be if somebody wants to

617

::

kind of introduce another

618

::

product line because they have

619

::

one product line that they're

620

::

really good at selling but the

621

::

second product line doesn't

622

::

get much sales except for

623

::

returning customers, we can

624

::

try to use the funnels to

625

::

potentially get people to buy

626

::

that second product before

627

::

having to go through the

628

::

whole, you know, 30, 60 days

629

::

and then go through email,

630

::

etc.

631

::

So we can bypass that.

632

::

So then the email could

633

::

sell them the third thing,

634

::

for example.

635

::

So it really just depends on

636

::

each brand and what

637

::

the goal that they have is.

638

::

But I would say for the most

639

::

part, if any brand made it to

640

::

like 1 or 2, 3 million a

641

::

month, they most likely have

642

::

some sort of retention figured

643

::

out and they know how to get

644

::

people back.

645

::

So if that's the case, then

646

::

it's more so liquidating

647

::

CPA or just increasing profit

648

::

on the front end so

649

::

they can spend more on ads.

650

::

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

651

::

I just wanted to say something.

652

::

Yeah.

653

::

Because we have a few, A

654

::

few brands that, where we have

655

::

like one clear hero product

656

::

that like, on the outside,

657

::

we just want

658

::

to advertise that one product.

659

::

Product and everything

660

::

else just.

661

::

It doesn't make sense

662

::

on the front end.

663

::

But the brand obviously still

664

::

wants to sell that and they

665

::

always, like, try to push us

666

::

to push it more on the ads.

667

::

But from a customer

668

::

acquisition standpoint, it

669

::

just doesn't make sense

670

::

to push those products.

671

::

So with those kind of products,

672

::

I always tell them like, that

673

::

is something that you need to

674

::

sell on the back end, either

675

::

through email marketing,

676

::

through the post purchase

677

::

funnel, because for the

678

::

customer acquisition, it

679

::

doesn't work, but it's still

680

::

like an amazing product that

681

::

the customers wants to buy.

682

::

Like, want to buy.

683

::

Yeah, 100%.

684

::

I mean, again, it really

685

::

depends on what their

686

::

goals are and like, what,

687

::

what their needs are.

688

::

Like sometimes we have

689

::

a client say, I need to get

690

::

rid of like, the 15,000

691

::

units of this product.

692

::

How can we get rid of it?

693

::

And that's where we come up

694

::

with like, you know, similar

695

::

to how people do like

696

::

flash sales on the front end.

697

::

Like, we'll do like a flash

698

::

sale on the back end and say,

699

::

you know, you know,

700

::

Mother's Day flash sale.

701

::

Choose any of these

702

::

and get 60 off.

703

::

And then we usually do like

704

::

a three pack or a six pack

705

::

just to get rid of as much

706

::

stock and still have margin.

707

::

So there's a lot of ways

708

::

to go around it.

709

::

But, like, it really

710

::

depends on what the problem

711

::

the brand has.

712

::

Whether it's like, they

713

::

don't have enough margin

714

::

or if they have too much stock

715

::

or if they have very low

716

::

returning customer rates.

717

::

Because if they have very

718

::

low returning customer

719

::

rates, we need to make as

720

::

much profit as possible

721

::

from every single order

722

::

because otherwise we know

723

::

we're never getting these

724

::

people back.

725

::

Like I work with a lot

726

::

of people that are like

727

::

dropshippers, they have

728

::

like one or two products

729

::

or maybe just one product

730

::

and that's it.

731

::

Like they just know

732

::

someone's going to come buy

733

::

this and never buy again.

734

::

And they're just constantly

735

::

under the fear that as soon

736

::

as a CPA goes up a little bit,

737

::

they are in the negative.

738

::

They start losing thousands

739

::

of dollars every day

740

::

versus making thousand

741

::

dollars every day.

742

::

You can easily bypass that

743

::

with a post purchase funnel.

744

::

So what exactly is the

745

::

difference in strategy that

746

::

you approach when it comes

747

::

to like a store that sells

748

::

that has primarily one time

749

::

customers versus a store

750

::

that has like a lot of

751

::

returning customers?

752

::

Yeah, so I mean the biggest

753

::

strategy is going to be around

754

::

messaging and segmentation.

755

::

So like if we're upselling for

756

::

a brand that only sells once,

757

::

the messaging and everything

758

::

around the offer that we

759

::

make, whether it's the same

760

::

product again or a different

761

::

product, is more so urgency

762

::

based in the sense that like

763

::

this offer will never be here

764

::

again.

765

::

You know, this is

766

::

a limited time offer, etc.

767

::

And mainly the offer itself,

768

::

how it's positioned is

769

::

way more aggressive

770

::

because we know that they're

771

::

not going to come back.

772

::

So like we're just kind of

773

::

trying to make as much as we

774

::

can right now because we know

775

::

they're never going to come

776

::

back versus somebody who has

777

::

returning will usually be a

778

::

little bit softer with the

779

::

messaging.

780

::

And what we'll do is we'll

781

::

build a different funnel

782

::

for the returning customers.

783

::

So then the returning customers

784

::

will see different offers

785

::

than the new customers, which

786

::

means we can now play into

787

::

their purchase behavior.

788

::

So if they bought like

789

::

one product and they came

790

::

back and bought it again,

791

::

clearly they like it.

792

::

Let's upsell them like a

793

::

three month supply, six

794

::

month supply or like you

795

::

know, again, five pack, ten

796

::

pack, whatever, whatever the

797

::

case may be, whatever the

798

::

you know, unit that you use,

799

::

depending on the brand that

800

::

you're working on.

801

::

But the idea is, is like how

802

::

can we put as much product

803

::

in their hand right now?

804

::

Because even though

805

::

your cohort analysis may show

806

::

that a customer like 20%

807

::

of your customers at month 12

808

::

are still coming back.

809

::

Cool.

810

::

But that's not guaranteed.

811

::

So why, why not try to get as

812

::

much of it as possible every

813

::

single interaction you get.

814

::

And then if they stay for 12

815

::

months, even better, you just

816

::

made four times more money.

817

::

So that's the difference.

818

::

Mainly if like somebody I

819

::

Guess, has like a one time

820

::

brand or you know,

821

::

something that comes back.

822

::

It's just mainly

823

::

the messaging and how we

824

::

position the offers.

825

::

Like we can almost kind

826

::

of do more of like what we

827

::

call a Hail Mary strategy

828

::

on the brands that only

829

::

have one time purchase.

830

::

Like oh, like we could pretty

831

::

much sell them anything

832

::

because we know they're not

833

::

coming back versus if there

834

::

is returning customers then

835

::

we really have to think

836

::

about like this person's

837

::

probably going to come back

838

::

to this brand.

839

::

Like we can't use that type

840

::

of messaging or that type

841

::

of offer because it's

842

::

going to devalue the brand

843

::

in their eyes the next

844

::

time they come back.

845

::

Yeah, so some more

846

::

aggressive, more direct

847

::

response style

848

::

on the one time customers

849

::

and a little bit more like

850

::

softer and relationship

851

::

building on the retention

852

::

brands, right?

853

::

Yeah, 100% got it.

854

::

And I assume it's very

855

::

difficult because it depends

856

::

a lot on the brand.

857

::

But going into a little bit

858

::

more into the specifics, like

859

::

for a brand that's doing 10

860

::

million a year in revenue,

861

::

like what would you say should

862

::

post purchase contribute to

863

::

their, to their revenue or to

864

::

the results?

865

::

Yeah, there's a couple of like

866

::

things that play into that

867

::

just because if they're on

868

::

Shopify for example, and

869

::

they're using After Sell,

870

::

After Sell doesn't support

871

::

Shopify markets.

872

::

So if somebody checks out in

873

::

any other currency than your

874

::

default store currency, they

875

::

won't go through the funnels.

876

::

Hopefully Shopify will remove

877

::

that restriction soon and then

878

::

they'll be able to do it.

879

::

But right now like it's

880

::

just out of their hands.

881

::

They can't do it.

882

::

The other thing is Apple Pay

883

::

and Klarna and any

884

::

of these other third party

885

::

payment processors.

886

::

They're also not supported

887

::

by After Sell,

888

::

or any app for that matter,

889

::

OCU or any other one.

890

::

Even like specific payment

891

::

processors like Molly, I think

892

::

in the Netherlands or ideal,

893

::

like all those other ones,

894

::

they don't work either.

895

::

So you're very much limited

896

::

to Shopify payments

897

::

and Shop Pay and PayPal.

898

::

Those are the main ones that

899

::

will go through the funnels.

900

::

Now in an ideal world, assuming

901

::

you have a brand doing 10

902

::

million a year in the U.S.

903

::

all your store, your

904

::

orders are in USD.

905

::

You don't have any

906

::

Apple Pay orders.

907

::

Everyone is seeing the funnels.

908

::

You should be able

909

::

to get 10 to 15% of your

910

::

revenue, no problem.

911

::

Like it should probably be more

912

::

than that but like 10 to 15%

913

::

of your revenue, no problem.

914

::

You should be able

915

::

to get that so easily.

916

::

Could be One to one and a half

917

::

million a year, probably

918

::

even more, like I said.

919

::

And that's all at

920

::

the gross margin.

921

::

Most people are running

922

::

at like 70% plus margins.

923

::

So it's easily like a million

924

::

dollars a year in profit.

925

::

Yeah, because the brands

926

::

have already paid for

927

::

the customer acquisition

928

::

and everything and everything

929

::

goes to the bottom line.

930

::

Yeah.

931

::

Whether they show this offer

932

::

or not, they already paid

933

::

for the ads, already got

934

::

the sale, now they're just

935

::

tacking on more profit.

936

::

So yeah, it literally just goes

937

::

straight to the bottom line.

938

::

Yeah.

939

::

So much free money.

940

::

Yeah.

941

::

I mean it's crazy because

942

::

people don't actually

943

::

genuinely think

944

::

about how big this is.

945

::

Like a lot of people think, oh

946

::

there's going to be extra

947

::

like 10k a month, 20k a month.

948

::

Which to be fair if you're

949

::

running like worldwide and

950

::

multiple currencies and

951

::

multiple payment methods,

952

::

like yeah, you're only going

953

::

to get whatever you can get

954

::

out of it.

955

::

I would still challenge

956

::

that because a lot

957

::

of people's RPVs, which is

958

::

revenue per visit

959

::

on the funnels, that's like

960

::

the main metric people use.

961

::

Most people's RPV is

962

::

way too low anyways.

963

::

Like some of them have RPVs

964

::

as low as like 50 cents when

965

::

their AOV is like $60.

966

::

Which for context you want to

967

::

aim for 10 to 15% of your AOV.

968

::

So six to, what is that?

969

::

$9 essentially.

970

::

So if you're at 50 cents like

971

::

you've got, you've got a 10x

972

::

from where you are right now.

973

::

So I think that's also another

974

::

thing that a lot of people

975

::

don't really think about.

976

::

Yeah, you you talked before

977

::

about like three different,

978

::

three different layers of,

979

::

of liquidity liquidation.

980

::

Like one is the, the pre

981

::

purchase, one is the in cart

982

::

and checkout and one is

983

::

the, the post purchase.

984

::

From, from your experience,

985

::

what is like the job

986

::

of each of those layers?

987

::

Well the ones that are in cart

988

::

are more so like we don't

989

::

really play around with them

990

::

too much just because they

991

::

affect conversion rate.

992

::

So like with our service

993

::

specifically what I do with

994

::

post purchase, I remove all

995

::

the risk both monetarily

996

::

because it's performance based

997

::

and just kind of external risk

998

::

because we don't actually

999

::

touch their front end.

1000

::

Which means like if their ads

1001

::

were converting at 10%,

1002

::

they're going to still

1003

::

convert at 10% because

1004

::

nothing we do could ever

1005

::

break what's happening on

1006

::

their end already.

1007

::

Right.

1008

::

So I think that's like a big

1009

::

thing to think about but like

1010

::

if I was to just think

1011

::

about it like more so

1012

::

from a strategic perspective.

1013

::

And also don't quote me

1014

::

about that because we might

1015

::

start doing cart stuff

1016

::

soon just because, you

1017

::

know, a lot of our clients

1018

::

are asking us for it.

1019

::

But we do tell them that

1020

::

this could affect

1021

::

front end conversion.

1022

::

So we have to be careful.

1023

::

But I think with cart

1024

::

upsells you kind of, they,

1025

::

they kind of get, if I had

1026

::

to guess, and also based

1027

::

off some of the testing we

1028

::

did, they almost get

1029

::

considered more than post

1030

::

purchase ones do.

1031

::

And this is, this has to do

1032

::

with like the psychological

1033

::

theory of like the peak of the

1034

::

customer journey is when

1035

::

somebody buys like as soon as

1036

::

they buy the clock of like

1037

::

what's it called?

1038

::

Whatever they buy, like

1039

::

the regret afterwards.

1040

::

Basically like

1041

::

that starts right after.

1042

::

Which means like basically

1043

::

from that point forward

1044

::

they're already starting

1045

::

to think like oh, I probably

1046

::

shouldn't have bought this or

1047

::

oh, that was expensive.

1048

::

Or even like oh, I can't

1049

::

wait for this to come.

1050

::

So at that point it's like

1051

::

anything else you add on is

1052

::

there's still that high.

1053

::

But the thing is in

1054

::

the beginning when they land

1055

::

on, especially if it's a new

1056

::

customer, cold traffic,

1057

::

they land on your page,

1058

::

you're still building trust.

1059

::

They add to cart,

1060

::

they get to the cart.

1061

::

The upsells in the cart should

1062

::

usually be there to fulfill

1063

::

whatever offer you have.

1064

::

That's usually the strategy

1065

::

everybody's doing.

1066

::

That's why they have those

1067

::

progress bars and stuff.

1068

::

So those upsells people really

1069

::

look at the price more

1070

::

than anything to see if they

1071

::

will fulfill that goal.

1072

::

Now after they get past that

1073

::

point on the post purchase

1074

::

side, there's no goal anymore.

1075

::

It's whatever you put

1076

::

in front of them

1077

::

and how you position it.

1078

::

So whether that be a limited

1079

::

time offer where for that

1080

::

month or for that week

1081

::

or for that specific segment,

1082

::

like you know, you're

1083

::

the hundredth customer.

1084

::

Some people do that,

1085

::

you know, strategy.

1086

::

And it does pretty well.

1087

::

And then the last thing

1088

::

is the thank you page.

1089

::

I think that's what

1090

::

you're asking.

1091

::

The thank you page is like

1092

::

basically after they buy.

1093

::

Usually what we find with

1094

::

the thank you page offers.

1095

::

People that take the post

1096

::

purchase offers

1097

::

don't necessarily take

1098

::

the thank you page.

1099

::

The thank you page ones we

1100

::

use are for the people that

1101

::

don't see the funnels.

1102

::

Because if they don't see

1103

::

the funnels, whatever

1104

::

currency or whatever, we

1105

::

can still upsell them

1106

::

on the thank you page.

1107

::

Now there's more friction

1108

::

obviously because they have

1109

::

to go through the whole

1110

::

checkout process again versus

1111

::

the upsells within the funnels

1112

::

are one click upsells.

1113

::

So because of that we see

1114

::

a drop in conversion.

1115

::

We see a drop in like the RPV

1116

::

on the thank you page.

1117

::

But again, like, don't be

1118

::

mistaken by the fact

1119

::

just because it's a drop

1120

::

doesn't mean they don't

1121

::

make a lot of money.

1122

::

Like, you know, we have

1123

::

a brand doing 50 million

1124

::

a month right now where we

1125

::

make over a million dollars

1126

::

a month in the funnels.

1127

::

And then the thank you page as

1128

::

well makes like 200k a month.

1129

::

So still decent amount

1130

::

of volume from there.

1131

::

But again, before us they were

1132

::

probably making like, I can't

1133

::

even remember the number, but

1134

::

it would be like 5 or 10k from

1135

::

their thank you page and maybe

1136

::

like 40k a from their funnels.

1137

::

So again, it was like they

1138

::

had the smart funnel set up.

1139

::

It just runs

1140

::

whatever RPV they get.

1141

::

They're like, whatever,

1142

::

it's free money.

1143

::

But they about, I think

1144

::

eight or nine months ago.

1145

::

Yeah, almost a year now, they

1146

::

came to us and we started

1147

::

working on this and you

1148

::

know, we took their RPV from

1149

::

like $2 to $3 to $4 to $5 to

1150

::

$6 and now we're trying to

1151

::

crack $7.

1152

::

So that's basically using

1153

::

the combination of thank

1154

::

you page and post purchase.

1155

::

We're not, we're not touching

1156

::

like the, the cart ones,

1157

::

checkout ones as well.

1158

::

Like that's another

1159

::

thing that you could do.

1160

::

We also aren't playing around

1161

::

that too much just because

1162

::

it's on the front end.

1163

::

And again, it could

1164

::

hurt conversion rate.

1165

::

But what we've seen is you

1166

::

can kind of carry over

1167

::

the same offer you had

1168

::

in the cart to the funnel,

1169

::

to the, to the checkout.

1170

::

So if it's like, you know,

1171

::

you're $50 away from free

1172

::

shipping, putting that same

1173

::

thing in the checkout right

1174

::

under the shipping where it

1175

::

shows the shipping is $5,

1176

::

then it says there's a

1177

::

progress bar and it's like

1178

::

add this and then the

1179

::

shipping will be free, then

1180

::

they'll do it and then it'll

1181

::

be free.

1182

::

That also works pretty well.

1183

::

So yeah, those are, those

1184

::

are kind of like

1185

::

the main way we would use

1186

::

each one of those ones.

1187

::

Like the cart, the upsells,

1188

::

the funnel, the checkout

1189

::

and the thank you page.

1190

::

And what would you tell

1191

::

founders that are like.

1192

::

I think a lot of founders that

1193

::

I've talked to, they're

1194

::

Always afraid of adding like

1195

::

too much, too many like

1196

::

upsells cross sells because

1197

::

they think they are like to

1198

::

salesy or putting too much

1199

::

pressure on their customers

1200

::

and they don't want to like

1201

::

hurt the relationship that

1202

::

they have with them.

1203

::

Yeah, I mean I've heard that

1204

::

before and we tested this now

1205

::

obviously on massive brands.

1206

::

So we know that

1207

::

that's not the case.

1208

::

It's more so of

1209

::

a limiting belief.

1210

::

There's a right way

1211

::

and a wrong way to do upsells.

1212

::

I will say that there's like

1213

::

people that will devalue their

1214

::

brand with their upsells

1215

::

and not because of discounts,

1216

::

because people think that

1217

::

the discount devalues a brand.

1218

::

That's not the case.

1219

::

It's a like discounts

1220

::

with no context or reason.

1221

::

Like oh, here's another one

1222

::

for 80% off, no reason

1223

::

whatsoever versus you

1224

::

know, because it's

1225

::

Father's Day or you know,

1226

::

Father's day weekend

1227

::

exclusive, buy another one

1228

::

for 70% off today only.

1229

::

Right.

1230

::

The framing is very different.

1231

::

Or for example like if they

1232

::

bought a product now with

1233

::

after sell, there's a lot

1234

::

of personalization you can do.

1235

::

Like you put their name, you

1236

::

can put their, you know, you

1237

::

put their name, you can put

1238

::

like the product they bought,

1239

::

etc, like it'd be dynamic.

1240

::

So you can basically say,

1241

::

you know, you know, Andre,

1242

::

today your customer number

1243

::

100 that bought this

1244

::

product and because you

1245

::

did, you're eligible to

1246

::

get another one at 80% off

1247

::

just for you.

1248

::

This offer expires in two

1249

::

minutes or whatever and then

1250

::

underneath you can explain

1251

::

that, you know, we are a

1252

::

brand that likes to give back

1253

::

to our customers and you

1254

::

know, etc like to, to as a

1255

::

token of appreciation we want

1256

::

to offer you this.

1257

::

Don't confuse this with

1258

::

what you see on the store.

1259

::

You'll never see this

1260

::

publicly anywhere.

1261

::

This is purely just for you.

1262

::

You cannot share it with

1263

::

anybody, take it or leave it

1264

::

kind of thing that makes A,

1265

::

the customer feel like more

1266

::

special and B, doesn't hurt

1267

::

the brand's image where they

1268

::

feel like they got you know,

1269

::

scam because they spent $80

1270

::

on a hoodie that you're not

1271

::

offering for five versus if

1272

::

there's a reason why it's

1273

::

offered for five.

1274

::

You're like sick.

1275

::

This is amazing.

1276

::

I like this brand.

1277

::

Like if you went to gymshark

1278

::

to buy a, a workout

1279

::

shirt and they offered you

1280

::

five more for the price

1281

::

of one, just like that, no

1282

::

reason whatsoever.

1283

::

You give me like sick.

1284

::

Good deal.

1285

::

Take it.

1286

::

But you might Think

1287

::

in the back of your head after

1288

::

like, well, how could

1289

::

they afford to do that?

1290

::

And I just paid $50,

1291

::

you know what I mean?

1292

::

So it doesn't.

1293

::

Versus if you positioned it

1294

::

as like, you know, you

1295

::

unlocked, you know, you have

1296

::

to make it eligible, like

1297

::

why did they unlock it?

1298

::

Then it becomes more logical

1299

::

for them that like I

1300

::

should seize this opportunity,

1301

::

you know what I mean?

1302

::

And then we've seen this

1303

::

also happen on the, on the

1304

::

retention side when they

1305

::

send emails and then we get

1306

::

those huge spikes in post

1307

::

purchase revenue for those

1308

::

days because they send out

1309

::

an email, people come back

1310

::

and buy.

1311

::

We have returning customer

1312

::

funnels that absolutely

1313

::

demolish all of the, like they

1314

::

get so much stock sold through

1315

::

that every time that they

1316

::

start to realize that people,

1317

::

when they come back they spend

1318

::

more as well.

1319

::

So they spent more initially

1320

::

and they spend more as well.

1321

::

So if anything it actually

1322

::

complements it if it's done

1323

::

properly now, if it's done

1324

::

poorly, I could definitely

1325

::

see how a customer can be,

1326

::

you know, can feel like they

1327

::

were scammed because they

1328

::

bought the first product for

1329

::

400 and now they're being

1330

::

offered it for 25 bucks.

1331

::

Yeah, the messaging

1332

::

and the reason behind

1333

::

the offer is super important.

1334

::

I mean it's the same

1335

::

on the ads.

1336

::

You can have very aggressive

1337

::

front end offers

1338

::

and if you communicate it

1339

::

properly you can do it without

1340

::

devaluing the brand.

1341

::

But if you just always have

1342

::

an 80% off, sale running, then

1343

::

people will just

1344

::

assume that's the way it

1345

::

is and that's the brand.

1346

::

Yeah, makes a, makes

1347

::

a huge difference.

1348

::

Yeah.

1349

::

What is your approach when it

1350

::

comes to like more, more

1351

::

premium brands or brands that

1352

::

don't want to do like those,

1353

::

those aggressive discounts,

1354

::

would you say like post

1355

::

purchase funnels also work

1356

::

for, for those brands?

1357

::

100%?

1358

::

They're not gonna, I will say

1359

::

this very clearly, they will

1360

::

not perform as well as others

1361

::

that do offer more discounts.

1362

::

That's just the reality of it.

1363

::

You can't upsell someone

1364

::

the same product they bought

1365

::

for the same price.

1366

::

It just, you don't have a good

1367

::

enough reason to do so.

1368

::

Like as in like the customer

1369

::

doesn't have a good enough

1370

::

reason to say yes, so you have

1371

::

to sweeten the deal somehow.

1372

::

What we've done with premium

1373

::

brands is we may not offer it

1374

::

discounted, but you

1375

::

might include a free gift

1376

::

if they take that offer.

1377

::

So if they buy, if you bought

1378

::

like this DJI thing

1379

::

we're going to give you like

1380

::

this thing's like whatever,

1381

::

200 bucks, 300 bucks.

1382

::

We're going to give you

1383

::

a tripod for free if you buy

1384

::

the battery pack,

1385

::

for example, in that case.

1386

::

Now the tripod doesn't seem

1387

::

like something cheap because,

1388

::

like, and the discount becomes

1389

::

the value of the tripod, which

1390

::

is probably like 150 bucks.

1391

::

So now they get $150 saving

1392

::

if they take this battery

1393

::

pack with this product.

1394

::

So it's not going to convert

1395

::

as well as if I just offered

1396

::

the battery pack at 40% off.

1397

::

But it could still

1398

::

perform and it still

1399

::

generates a lot of money.

1400

::

So it still works.

1401

::

It just like, requires

1402

::

a little bit more finesse.

1403

::

So just to like, make it

1404

::

actually work properly.

1405

::

Yeah.

1406

::

And how do you find

1407

::

the perfect balance between

1408

::

just like maximizing revenue

1409

::

per visitor but also making

1410

::

sure that the profit per

1411

::

visitor is high?

1412

::

Because obviously you already

1413

::

like, the brand already paid

1414

::

for the customer acquisition

1415

::

and for the ads, but they

1416

::

obviously still have to pay

1417

::

for the product itself.

1418

::

So if you give out, give

1419

::

out like 10 products at 80%,

1420

::

80% off, the brand might not

1421

::

make as much profit from it.

1422

::

Yeah.

1423

::

So, I mean, this is

1424

::

actually very interesting

1425

::

because we, the way that

1426

::

we structure our offers,

1427

::

our profit splits for the

1428

::

most part, we do some Rev

1429

::

shares as well, but mainly

1430

::

profit splits.

1431

::

So like with our team

1432

::

specifically, like, we're

1433

::

incentivized to maximize

1434

::

the profit because we

1435

::

get paid a cut out of it.

1436

::

Right.

1437

::

So when we test stuff,

1438

::

we're mainly focusing on how

1439

::

could we increase profit

1440

::

per visit more than we are

1441

::

on revenue per visit.

1442

::

Usually they go hand in

1443

::

hand, but the biggest

1444

::

player is conversion rate

1445

::

because, like, a lot of

1446

::

people tend to try to

1447

::

increase conversion rate as

1448

::

much as possible.

1449

::

And what happens is they end

1450

::

up lowering their margins

1451

::

so much where now their RPV

1452

::

might be $10, but their

1453

::

profit is like 42 cents or

1454

::

a dollar versus we might

1455

::

come in, drop the RPV to 7

1456

::

or $5.

1457

::

But now the profit per

1458

::

visit is like $3.50.

1459

::

So they essentially like 7x

1460

::

their profit per visit

1461

::

by lowering the RPV.

1462

::

So there's actually a, you

1463

::

can actually track your PPV

1464

::

in after sale if you have your

1465

::

cogs set up on Shopify.

1466

::

We also do it manually

1467

::

with our funnel trackers.

1468

::

Like we built our own.

1469

::

We could just kind

1470

::

of figure out what the PPV

1471

::

is because we ask for

1472

::

our cogs and everything.

1473

::

But in reality the main metric

1474

::

you're focusing on is ppv

1475

::

because sometimes you might be

1476

::

giving up too much margin to

1477

::

increase the conversion rate,

1478

::

and then the increase in

1479

::

conversion rate isn't enough

1480

::

to justify it.

1481

::

And now you have an inflated

1482

::

rpv, but your

1483

::

profit's actually lower.

1484

::

Yeah, that makes

1485

::

a lot of sense.

1486

::

So you want to test a lot

1487

::

of prices like price testing,

1488

::

offer testing, bundle

1489

::

testing, product testing,

1490

::

all of those to try to find

1491

::

the perfect balance.

1492

::

And then you can use stuff

1493

::

like, you know, the actual

1494

::

copy, the angle,

1495

::

the design of the pages

1496

::

to increase the conversion

1497

::

rate after that point.

1498

::

Because, like, if you found

1499

::

the sweet spot price, now you

1500

::

just want to keep increasing

1501

::

the actual conversion rate.

1502

::

So it's good for when

1503

::

you're testing to always

1504

::

know what metric

1505

::

you're aiming for first.

1506

::

Yeah.

1507

::

And when it comes

1508

::

to structuring the different

1509

::

offers that you're doing,

1510

::

I've heard multiple

1511

::

different approaches.

1512

::

Like some people, say that it's

1513

::

better to start with a pretty

1514

::

cheap offer to get the person

1515

::

to say yes to commit to it.

1516

::

And then you give the second

1517

::

offer and the third

1518

::

offer and try to get them

1519

::

into the yes loop

1520

::

of just taking everything.

1521

::

And other people say you

1522

::

should do the most expensive

1523

::

offer in the beginning.

1524

::

And Even if only 10% or 5%

1525

::

of people take it, you

1526

::

massively increase your AOV.

1527

::

And also, in comparison,

1528

::

the second and third offer

1529

::

will look way cheaper, so

1530

::

they're way more likely

1531

::

to take on those offers.

1532

::

What is your, your approach?

1533

::

I'm, the other people, so I'm

1534

::

the ones you're talking about.

1535

::

So all of our strategies

1536

::

involve us upselling the most

1537

::

expensive products first.

1538

::

So the idea is like,

1539

::

in some cases we'll change

1540

::

it, but in most cases

1541

::

that's how we run it.

1542

::

Because, you know, like you

1543

::

said, as soon as you upsell

1544

::

them the most expensive item,

1545

::

everything else looks like

1546

::

a better deal, first of all.

1547

::

So it price anchors.

1548

::

The second thing as well is

1549

::

that it's the closest thing

1550

::

to their current aov.

1551

::

If anything, when you upsell

1552

::

them, cheaper products

1553

::

leading up to higher AOVs,

1554

::

what happens is like, they

1555

::

start, they start to get

1556

::

more price sensitive every

1557

::

step they go.

1558

::

Because the last offer they

1559

::

took was $5 or $10, now it's

1560

::

25, now it's 50 versus if

1561

::

it was 50 and now it's only

1562

::

25, now it's only 10.

1563

::

It's a very big difference.

1564

::

Right.

1565

::

And we see that that's one of

1566

::

the biggest differentiators

1567

::

between our funnels and other

1568

::

people's funnels, or just like

1569

::

people that set up their own

1570

::

funnels in general, our

1571

::

conversion rate and RPV down

1572

::

the funnel.

1573

::

So from upsell one upsell two

1574

::

upsell three goes up versus

1575

::

most people's funnels go down.

1576

::

So like they might have

1577

::

the first upsell like 30%

1578

::

conversion, rate $4 RPV.

1579

::

Then their second one's

1580

::

like 10% and the RPV is

1581

::

like $2 and then

1582

::

the other one's like 10%.

1583

::

The arbitrary is like $2

1584

::

versus ours.

1585

::

The first one would be like

1586

::

4, second one would be

1587

::

like 8, third one would be

1588

::

like 14 because that's where

1589

::

that's, that's like

1590

::

we're stacking on top of it.

1591

::

Like I would rather the people

1592

::

that say no to the higher

1593

::

priced item, I will downsell

1594

::

them the cheaper one.

1595

::

But I want the people that say

1596

::

yes to the higher priced item

1597

::

to go through to the next

1598

::

because those are the

1599

::

customers that are worth the

1600

::

most because they will if they

1601

::

say yes to the most expensive

1602

::

one, the other ones look way

1603

::

cheaper to them.

1604

::

They're just going

1605

::

to take them all.

1606

::

Yeah, yeah.

1607

::

Let's say you work with

1608

::

with a supplement brand that

1609

::

does, that has a let's say $80

1610

::

average order value.

1611

::

Like roughly, roughly.

1612

::

Where would you price

1613

::

the different upsells

1614

::

in the beginning, like when

1615

::

you're just starting out

1616

::

and if you have like no data

1617

::

from, from prior tests.

1618

::

Yeah, I mean I guess

1619

::

it depends like $80.

1620

::

Is it just one box or

1621

::

is it like a buy 2

1622

::

get one kind of offer?

1623

::

Or like what's the, Is it

1624

::

just one box for $80?

1625

::

Yeah, I would say, I would

1626

::

say average card size like

1627

::

one and a half,

1628

::

one and a half boxes of like

1629

::

a, a basic protein.

1630

::

So for example, like

1631

::

there's, there's, there's

1632

::

a couple different type

1633

::

people we work with.

1634

::

So there's like the supplement

1635

::

guys who run like kitchen

1636

::

bundles like setups like

1637

::

buy one, get one, buy to get

1638

::

one and then they usually are

1639

::

on subscription.

1640

::

Then 60, 70 subscribe,

1641

::

the other 40 or 30 don't.

1642

::

And then basically the people

1643

::

that subscribe, we upsell

1644

::

them different products.

1645

::

The people that don't

1646

::

subscribe, we upsell

1647

::

them volume like more.

1648

::

So I guess $80 if they're

1649

::

buying let's say two bottles.

1650

::

So we would

1651

::

probably upsell them.

1652

::

If they only have one sku

1653

::

one product, we probably

1654

::

sell them two more,

1655

::

then sell them one more.

1656

::

If they say yes, then

1657

::

sell them another one.

1658

::

And then if they say no

1659

::

to the two we'd

1660

::

probably sell them one.

1661

::

That would be one funnel.

1662

::

We would try another funnel.

1663

::

We would try would

1664

::

probably be like a 3, 6,

1665

::

12 month supply setup.

1666

::

So we might say here, buy like

1667

::

a 1212 month supply and if

1668

::

they say no, we might say

1669

::

cool, 12 months is a lot.

1670

::

Buy a 6 month supply.

1671

::

Then we might test 6 and 3.

1672

::

Then if they say yes to the

1673

::

12 month, we might upsell

1674

::

them then an extra 6 month

1675

::

for a friend or whatever,

1676

::

like a, like a loved one

1677

::

who has a similar issue

1678

::

that they're trying to

1679

::

fix, etc.

1680

::

We use a lot of copy there,

1681

::

like emotional copy around,

1682

::

like help them kickstart their

1683

::

journey because you know, they

1684

::

may not even know they have

1685

::

the problem that they have,

1686

::

stuff like that to kind of

1687

::

build into it.

1688

::

But usually we recommend

1689

::

they have other SKUs

1690

::

to be able to upsell.

1691

::

But the pricing of the upsell,

1692

::

if they have an $80 AOV,

1693

::

like I'll probably

1694

::

start testing around $60, $60

1695

::

for the, for the first one.

1696

::

And then cheaper ones, cheaper

1697

::

ones, like I'd probably go

1698

::

60, 40 and then 20 if I

1699

::

could if the margin allows me.

1700

::

Or I'd probably go,

1701

::

you know, and then downsell

1702

::

will probably also be 40

1703

::

and then from there

1704

::

I'll just split test.

1705

::

So I might do 60, 55, 57, 52,

1706

::

49 and then just see where

1707

::

can I get the most amount

1708

::

of conversion rate boost with

1709

::

the highest price possible.

1710

::

Got it.

1711

::

And I assume for the, also

1712

::

like for a subscription

1713

::

brand that sells, for

1714

::

example, the supplement on

1715

::

subscription, you just try

1716

::

to move as much cash

1717

::

forward as possible and

1718

::

sell them like the 12

1719

::

month, 6 month, 3 month

1720

::

upfront rather than getting

1721

::

them on a subscription

1722

::

right away.

1723

::

Right.

1724

::

Well if they already were

1725

::

offered a subscription

1726

::

and they said no, it kind of

1727

::

doesn't make sense to upsell

1728

::

them again on a subscription.

1729

::

So that's that, that's at

1730

::

least what we've seen so far.

1731

::

So it's like if somebody

1732

::

didn't subscribe, why

1733

::

would they subscribe now?

1734

::

So the idea is instead if they

1735

::

subscribed you can either.

1736

::

This is something that's very

1737

::

new that we're playing

1738

::

around with right now

1739

::

is upgrade your subscription.

1740

::

So someone subscribes

1741

::

to the monthly.

1742

::

We're like cool, you know,

1743

::

if you want you can upgrade

1744

::

to a quarterly and we'll

1745

::

give you an extra $10 off.

1746

::

And then they would.

1747

::

Then there's a button now

1748

::

with integration with after

1749

::

sell and I think recharge.

1750

::

I mean they, I shouldn't

1751

::

probably be saying this

1752

::

because like some of it's

1753

::

like still beta mode,

1754

::

but they are going

1755

::

to Launch it soon, I think.

1756

::

So we're testing it on

1757

::

a couple stores, but basically

1758

::

you can upgrade

1759

::

subscription so they go from

1760

::

a monthly to a quarterly.

1761

::

So that same like month when

1762

::

they renew, they'll renew for

1763

::

three months instead of one.

1764

::

So now the expected cash went

1765

::

from the $30 to maybe the,

1766

::

I don't know, $65.

1767

::

Because now they're going

1768

::

to the quarterly

1769

::

instead of the monthly.

1770

::

So that one also works very

1771

::

well for non subscribers.

1772

::

Yeah, it doesn't make sense

1773

::

to put them on another

1774

::

subscription instead.

1775

::

I would just focus on quantity

1776

::

and focus on like you

1777

::

said, six month, 12 month,

1778

::

three month, two month even.

1779

::

Like it doesn't just have

1780

::

to be three, six 12, like it

1781

::

literally be two months.

1782

::

It could be one month.

1783

::

You could literally do three.

1784

::

And if they sell us.

1785

::

No, you could test two

1786

::

and then if that doesn't

1787

::

work, you can test one, then

1788

::

you can go two and one.

1789

::

So again, a lot of it comes

1790

::

down to testing and I

1791

::

think just in general, people

1792

::

just don't do that on

1793

::

the post purchase because like

1794

::

they don't care to.

1795

::

It's just too much work

1796

::

considering they could do that

1797

::

same amount of work on the

1798

::

front end and make more money

1799

::

technically, but it's only

1800

::

more money revenue, not more

1801

::

money profit.

1802

::

Yeah, yeah.

1803

::

I assume the quarterly, like

1804

::

changing them, the

1805

::

subscription to a quarterly

1806

::

basis will have a massive

1807

::

impact on the, on the ltv

1808

::

because obviously you get the

1809

::

quarterly one right away.

1810

::

And then also if it

1811

::

renews after three months,

1812

::

you get another like

1813

::

really big payment.

1814

::

And you also just move

1815

::

a lot of cash forward.

1816

::

And cash today is always way

1817

::

more worth than potential

1818

::

cash in like three months.

1819

::

Yeah.

1820

::

So yeah, I think that's,

1821

::

that, that's a great offer.

1822

::

Yeah.

1823

::

When it comes to the,

1824

::

to the testing, like what is,

1825

::

what do you focus on the most?

1826

::

Is it just like different

1827

::

products, different offers?

1828

::

Or if you like, if you would

1829

::

only be able to test one

1830

::

thing, what would it be?

1831

::

So I'm not really a fan

1832

::

of testing one thing.

1833

::

I like to test a lot of stuff.

1834

::

We have our own strategy that

1835

::

we developed over the last

1836

::

year and a half now and so far

1837

::

it's served us very well

1838

::

across over a hundred brands.

1839

::

So essentially we test in five

1840

::

different buckets initially.

1841

::

We start with products

1842

::

and within products you can

1843

::

test obviously different

1844

::

quantities, different, order.

1845

::

So like Product A, Product

1846

::

B, Product C versus Product

1847

::

B, Product A, Product C

1848

::

versus Product C, Product A.

1849

::

So you get what I mean,

1850

::

like the order of where

1851

::

that product is, and then

1852

::

the type of product.

1853

::

So that's the first type

1854

::

of testing that we do.

1855

::

The second testing comes down

1856

::

to pricing and offers.

1857

::

So once we crack those products

1858

::

like those are the product

1859

::

orders that work well.

1860

::

So you'd be surprised

1861

::

sometimes if you just upsell

1862

::

the AirPods before the DJI

1863

::

one, it does bad.

1864

::

But if you upsell this

1865

::

versus this, all

1866

::

of a sudden it works.

1867

::

So we always want to test

1868

::

all the different variations

1869

::

that are possible.

1870

::

Then when we find the ones

1871

::

that perform the best,

1872

::

the next part is doing price

1873

::

testing and offer testing.

1874

::

So testing different prices,

1875

::

again different offers.

1876

::

Usually we're running

1877

::

split tests, sometimes

1878

::

we have ABCD tests.

1879

::

So like we have four different

1880

::

versions that we're

1881

::

testing at the same time.

1882

::

So that's also pretty cool that

1883

::

you could do on aftercell.

1884

::

And then basically

1885

::

from that point, once you

1886

::

crack the price or the offer,

1887

::

you can go into

1888

::

the angles and the copy.

1889

::

So that's where like you know,

1890

::

going back to their winning

1891

::

ads, seeing what the winning

1892

::

angle is, what the main

1893

::

desire awareness

1894

::

sophistication, like the more

1895

::

of the ad stuff that we

1896

::

focused on back in the day,

1897

::

we're now using that for our

1898

::

post purchase funnels as

1899

::

well.

1900

::

So we take their ads, we pull

1901

::

the transcripts, we put them

1902

::

into like a cloud that we

1903

::

built that is filled in with

1904

::

all the information from

1905

::

Eugene Schwartz and all the

1906

::

best copywriters for direct

1907

::

response.

1908

::

And we try to pull from those,

1909

::

okay, what's the main desire

1910

::

awareness sophistication

1911

::

of this customer?

1912

::

Why are they buying

1913

::

this product?

1914

::

How can we position this

1915

::

second product using the copy

1916

::

that we have as the highest

1917

::

priority item they

1918

::

should get next logically.

1919

::

Because what I found is that

1920

::

upsells are logical.

1921

::

They're not like emotional

1922

::

people don't take the upsells

1923

::

because of emotion.

1924

::

They take it because of

1925

::

it being a logical.

1926

::

Yes.

1927

::

At least that's what

1928

::

our testing has found.

1929

::

I mean there's probably

1930

::

other people that

1931

::

have found the other.

1932

::

Like this is the fun

1933

::

part about econ.

1934

::

There's always one person doing

1935

::

one thing and saying it's

1936

::

the best and then someone else

1937

::

doing complete opposite.

1938

::

And it's also the best.

1939

::

So the reality is always all

1940

::

the best until you test it.

1941

::

But, essentially

1942

::

that's step three.

1943

::

Step four is the actual

1944

::

landing page ui, like how

1945

::

the page actually looks.

1946

::

This is a secret that

1947

::

I will keep to myself.

1948

::

But we have ways to build

1949

::

funnels that no one knows how

1950

::

to do it other than us.

1951

::

So we can build funnels

1952

::

that look like Full

1953

::

on landing pages.

1954

::

Whether that's like a, you

1955

::

know, tsl, like a, like a

1956

::

text sales letter, whether

1957

::

that's a advertorial,

1958

::

listicle, three reasons why,

1959

::

whatever the case may be, we

1960

::

could build whatever funnel

1961

::

we want in the, in the post

1962

::

purchase.

1963

::

And that will also help

1964

::

with conversion rate, although

1965

::

it's not as important

1966

::

as the first two or three

1967

::

that I talked about.

1968

::

And the last one

1969

::

is segmentation.

1970

::

So you kind of repeat this

1971

::

process after you segment.

1972

::

Because let's say the brand

1973

::

is selling two products,

1974

::

you have one funnel.

1975

::

Right?

1976

::

Now you're doing

1977

::

all this testing.

1978

::

Cool.

1979

::

Now you got this

1980

::

funnel dialed in.

1981

::

Cool.

1982

::

Now you can split the traffic

1983

::

into two funnels and repeat

1984

::

the whole process again.

1985

::

Products, pricing, offer.

1986

::

Because now they're

1987

::

buying something.

1988

::

Like now you control

1989

::

what they bought first.

1990

::

So if they bought this product,

1991

::

this, this, this works best.

1992

::

They bought this product,

1993

::

this, this, this works best.

1994

::

And you can keep testing that.

1995

::

Then when you finish that,

1996

::

you can go into the next

1997

::

layer, which is, how can

1998

::

I segment this further?

1999

::

By either how much they spent

2000

::

or how many they bought.

2001

::

Like, you know what I mean?

2002

::

Or if they're

2003

::

returning versus new.

2004

::

So a lot of people think

2005

::

that this, this thing that

2006

::

we do is like, we set it

2007

::

up and forget about it.

2008

::

Like, oh, I'm going to come

2009

::

in and 10x your RPV and then

2010

::

you're just going to, you

2011

::

know, fire me and then leave.

2012

::

And you're just gonna

2013

::

make 10x more money.

2014

::

You could make 10x more

2015

::

money, but you could also

2016

::

make 20x more money if

2017

::

you just keep testing.

2018

::

Because, like, the more

2019

::

of these tests that you crack,

2020

::

the higher the RPV

2021

::

gets, the higher AOV gets.

2022

::

Like, I have accounts

2023

::

that we've been working

2024

::

with, like I said

2025

::

for a year now, or more.

2026

::

Like I have a specific one that

2027

::

I'm going to do a case study

2028

::

on pretty soon that we

2029

::

onboard them at a $30 RPV.

2030

::

Within the first month

2031

::

we were at 10, which is

2032

::

obviously a big jump.

2033

::

But then over the course

2034

::

of the year, now we're at 20.

2035

::

So, you know, over, over

2036

::

the course of a year

2037

::

they've 20x their RPV or I

2038

::

guess 18x their RPV.

2039

::

But.

2040

::

Or maybe the math is not adding

2041

::

up, but you get the point.

2042

::

Versus, you know, if they had

2043

::

just let it off there, they

2044

::

would have only 10x and only

2045

::

10x is still a lot of money,

2046

::

but 20x is a lot more than 10.

2047

::

And it all came down

2048

::

to just Continuously testing

2049

::

and again, just continuously

2050

::

splitting and testing

2051

::

more, splitting

2052

::

and testing more, creating

2053

::

more what we call like

2054

::

customer journeys.

2055

::

Like every customer, if they

2056

::

bought one, they're gonna

2057

::

go through this path.

2058

::

If they buy two, they're

2059

::

gonna go through this path

2060

::

of this product or if they

2061

::

buy three, but one of them

2062

::

is this product, they're

2063

::

gonna do the other path.

2064

::

So it's starting to look at

2065

::

the order patterns of like

2066

::

what are the most common

2067

::

orders, how are they coming

2068

::

in and how can we then use

2069

::

the winning funnel that we've

2070

::

built to further increase the

2071

::

RPV of that specific path of

2072

::

customer?

2073

::

So if they bought like a water

2074

::

and a Coke Zero, how can we

2075

::

maximize how much they make

2076

::

versus the bought two waters?

2077

::

How much can they make?

2078

::

So you, you start creating

2079

::

all these customer

2080

::

journeys, it starts

2081

::

to look more like a mess.

2082

::

Unless you're the one who built

2083

::

them because there's going to

2084

::

be like 15, 20 funnels live.

2085

::

But that's the level that

2086

::

some of these bigger

2087

::

brands are operating at.

2088

::

To be making, you know,

2089

::

millions of dollars a month

2090

::

in profit from this.

2091

::

This.

2092

::

Yeah, that makes so much sense.

2093

::

Like to be honest, I never

2094

::

even thought that you could

2095

::

segment the, the post purchase

2096

::

survey to post purchase

2097

::

funnel to that degree.

2098

::

I mean it makes sense that

2099

::

based on like what the

2100

::

person bought and what kind

2101

::

of products they're they're

2102

::

looking for, they want to,

2103

::

to buy different products

2104

::

afterwards.

2105

::

And also depending whether

2106

::

it's a first time customer

2107

::

or returning customer

2108

::

that you want to give them

2109

::

than different offers.

2110

::

But I think like most

2111

::

founders don't even know

2112

::

that that's possible.

2113

::

Yeah, I mean no one, again,

2114

::

it's not their fault because

2115

::

like it's not the biggest

2116

::

thing in the world.

2117

::

You know, we're still

2118

::

talking making an extra

2119

::

million a month if you're

2120

::

doing like 10 million.

2121

::

So I mean it's still a million

2122

::

but this guy is making

2123

::

10 million so like he has

2124

::

more stuff to deal with.

2125

::

But I would say yeah, like

2126

::

you could, you could

2127

::

segment so much like you

2128

::

could do returning customer

2129

::

funnel where the minimum

2130

::

they spend is $60 and they

2131

::

are part of this segment

2132

::

that has this tag.

2133

::

So like we have a client

2134

::

who had like a VIP list.

2135

::

So this is like people

2136

::

that are paying for a VIP

2137

::

kind of membership.

2138

::

Those people, when we upsold,

2139

::

we had returning customer

2140

::

with this tag

2141

::

and then the funnel that we

2142

::

had, everything was discounted

2143

::

more than the normal.

2144

::

And it was also written

2145

::

on the page that this is a VIP

2146

::

customer upsell only.

2147

::

Don't share this with

2148

::

your friends, don't

2149

::

show this to anybody.

2150

::

This is offers only

2151

::

for you to take.

2152

::

And that, also obviously

2153

::

converts hell a lot

2154

::

better than the normal

2155

::

returning customer.

2156

::

One that's not vip.

2157

::

So even that, like, when you

2158

::

really start to think

2159

::

about it, it's like, how can

2160

::

we get people to buy more

2161

::

and be happy buying more?

2162

::

You have to make it

2163

::

personalized, you have

2164

::

to make it logical.

2165

::

And most importantly,

2166

::

it has to benefit

2167

::

the customer experience.

2168

::

It can't make it can't

2169

::

negatively impact it.

2170

::

Yeah.

2171

::

If a founder listening to

2172

::

this once, like one quick win

2173

::

this week, like, what would

2174

::

you recommend to him?

2175

::

Yeah, I'll give him

2176

::

a more detailed one.

2177

::

Go to your Shopify Sidekick

2178

::

AI thing that they now did

2179

::

and ask it, what are the

2180

::

what like based off of my

2181

::

Hero sku, what is the top

2182

::

product that is sold with

2183

::

it?

2184

::

And then put that product

2185

::

as your upsell one in your

2186

::

funnel and you will.

2187

::

That will be like

2188

::

the easiest way to get more

2189

::

revenue from funnels.

2190

::

Again, that's like the first

2191

::

easiest thing to do.

2192

::

But I mean, that's data driven

2193

::

based off your store right now

2194

::

that you could probably do

2195

::

in like 10 minutes.

2196

::

Yeah.

2197

::

So much free money.

2198

::

Nah, of course

2199

::

there's a lot of money.

2200

::

Where can people follow

2201

::

you and learn more?

2202

::

Yeah, I mean, I've got YouTube,

2203

::

Nizar Abdul Haleem, my name.

2204

::

I've got, Twitter, Ecom Nizar

2205

::

and I've got Instagram.

2206

::

Nizar Abdul Haleem underscore.

2207

::

Although I am trying to get

2208

::

at Nizar, so we'll see.

2209

::

But yeah, that's pretty

2210

::

much it right now.

2211

::

It's where you'll find me.

2212

::

I'm posting a lot of stuff.

2213

::

Definitely should be posting

2214

::

more than I am right now

2215

::

on YouTube, but I will be.

2216

::

And I, post a lot of Twitter,

2217

::

a lot of game there.

2218

::

And then also we're going to

2219

::

be posting soon on Instagram.

2220

::

Awesome.

2221

::

Thank you very much.

2222

::

So much, so much about you

2223

::

and here and yeah, yeah,

2224

::

thanks for having me, bro.

2225

::

Appreciate it.

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About the Podcast

Ecom Growth Insider
Real behind-the-scenes strategies from the trenches of scaling DTC brands. With founders, marketers, and growth experts.
If you're a DTC brand founder, CMO, growth marketer, or operator trying to scale your e-commerce business profitably, this podcast is for you.

Hosted by Andrej Tumachowitsch — founder of the growth agency HoloGrowth — this show goes deep on what actually works to grow online brands in today’s ultra-competitive landscape.

We go way beyond generic advice.

Every episode gives you practical, battle-tested insights directly from 7-, 8-, and 9-figure brand founders, top-tier marketers, and agency operators actively working in the trenches.

You’ll learn:
- What separates breakout ecom brands from the ones that plateau
- Paid media strategies that scale on Meta, Google & beyond
- How to use UGC, email, landing pages, and CRO to increase LTV & AOV
- Creative testing frameworks & campaign breakdowns that actually perform
- Smart ways to grow without sacrificing profit margins
- Founder mindsets, systems, and hiring practices that lead to longevity
- And the biggest mistakes brands are making right now (and how to avoid them)

Expect a mix of founder interviews, expert roundtables, solo lessons, and deep dives into what’s working right now in paid acquisition, conversion, and retention.

No fluff. No recycled advice. Just proven strategies to grow your ecommerce brand.

If you're tired of surface-level podcasts and want unfiltered access to the tactics and lessons real brands are using to scale — hit subscribe and join us inside the Ecom Growth Insider.

About your host

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Andrej Tumachowitsch

I'm the founder of HoloGrowth, a performance-driven growth agency helping e-commerce brands scale profitably to 7- and 8-figures through paid ads.

With years of experience in the trenches of DTC growth, I have worked with over 30 brands worldwide – building, optimizing, and scaling their marketing systems.

As the host of the Ecom Growth Insider podcast, I dive deep with top founders, marketers, and growth experts to unpack what’s really working behind the scenes in the DTC space.

My mission? To bring raw, actionable insights that help brand owners scale smarter.