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Brand Licensing: Rent A Fanbase, Not More Clicks | David Born, Born Licensing
Most ecommerce brands compete for attention on the same two platforms, against the same competitors, at the same rising cost. Brand licensing is the other way in: you borrow a fanbase somebody else spent decades building, put it on the product, and pay for it out of sales.
David Born has worked in licensing for about twenty years. He was inside Warner Bros. Consumer Products and at Cartoon Network, on the side of the table that decides which brands get a license. For the last twelve years he has run his own licensing agency, and a growing share of that work is now ecommerce brands.
This episode is the practical version. What a first license costs, line by line. How long it takes before anything can be sold. And why the character on the mood board is almost always the wrong one to start with.
What we get into:
- The minimum guarantee, and why it is owed whether or not a single unit sells
- The royalty rate he says an ecommerce brand pays on average, and the worked example behind it
- The two sales-forecast mistakes that kill a deal before it is drafted
- Why the hottest IP in the world is the worst possible first license
- Twelve months from first email to first sale, and where that time goes
- The ten working days every approval takes, and what resets the clock
- What a license does to the value of a company on the day it is sold
- The reason a licensing agent tells people licensing is a non-starter
The anchor case is Plum Deluxe, a loose leaf tea brand his agency works with. David relays what founder Andy Hayes told him: ten years in business, never licensed anything, then a Peanuts collection at Christmas that sold out in twelve days, with less ad spend than a normal launch. Those are Andy's numbers as David reports them.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro and what licensing actually covers
03:45 What a first license actually costs
04:38 Minimum guarantee and royalty, defined
05:37 The worked example on a Hello Kitty deal
10:52 Never make the hottest IP the first one
12:45 Who says yes to a brand with no track record
18:49 Twelve months from first email to first sale
19:56 The 10-day approval clock that resets
26:38 What has to be true before a license helps
27:17 Licensing does not save a struggling brand
28:06 A ten-year-old tea brand's first license
30:15 The second collection and the basket effect
34:43 Cash flow, margin and absorbing the royalty
40:02 The most expensive mistake he has seen
41:00 What a license does to a sale of the company
42:22 Overrated or underrated, five calls
45:29 The first move for an operator next week
FIND DAVID
Born Licensing: https://bornlicensing.com
Born to License: https://borntolicense.com
Learn to License: https://www.learntolicense.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidborn1
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidb0rn
Ecom Growth Insider: https://ecomgrowthinsider.com
Figures are David's own, or his clients' as he reports them. Nothing here is legal or financial advice.
Transcript
And they sold out, that Christmas collection sold out in 12 days.
Speaker:And it was much faster than they expected.
Speaker:And really importantly, he said that he spent less on ads than he normally would.
Speaker:He called it the best performing Meta ads that he's run since he started advertising on the platform in 2018.
Speaker:What is the biggest brand that your product could sit next to?
Speaker:No creator, an actual brand.
Speaker:Peanuts, Hello Kitty, Batman.
Speaker:Most founders assume that the door doesn't open for brands their size.
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:Nobody's explained what it costs and how long it takes.
Speaker:David Born spent about 20 years in licensing.
Speaker:He was inside Warner Bros. and Cartoon Network on the side of the table that decides who gets one.
Speaker:In the last 12 years, he's run his own agency, getting brands like yours through that door.
Speaker:So we got specific.
Speaker:What a first license costs with a real royalty number.
Speaker:Why your first one probably shouldn't be Disney.
Speaker:How long it takes before you can sell anything.
Speaker:And the part that most people get wrong.
Speaker:So licensing won't save a brand that is struggling.
Speaker:But it makes a good brand bigger.
Speaker:Let's go.
Speaker:David, welcome.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thanks, Andrej, for having me.
Speaker:Quick intro for the people who
Speaker:don't know you, like what are you
Speaker:actually doing right now?
Speaker:Yeah, so I'm David Born.
Speaker:I am a licensing expert.
Speaker:I've been in the licensing world
Speaker:for about 20 years now.
Speaker:I've worked at Warner Bros.
Speaker:Consumer Products.
Speaker:I've worked at Cartoon Network.
Speaker:And I've had my own licensing
Speaker:agency for the last 12 years.
Speaker:Really starting working with
Speaker:advertising agencies that wanted
Speaker:to license IP for their campaigns.
Speaker:Think SpongeBob in a Super Bowl
Speaker:commercial, for example.
Speaker:So we we did that for
Speaker:for quite a while.
Speaker:And now in addition to that, we've
Speaker:started a new era of our business
Speaker:where we're doing a lot of work with
Speaker:e-commerce brands, which I'm sure
Speaker:will come up at some point during
Speaker:our chat.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And let's start
Speaker:like really really basic.
Speaker:I think most people listening
Speaker:to this have never done that.
Speaker:Like when a brand puts
Speaker:a big character or like a famous
Speaker:name on their product, like what
Speaker:are they actually buying?
Speaker:And like what does a deal
Speaker:like that look like?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the first thing I should say is
Speaker:that often when people think of
Speaker:licensing, they think the obvious.
Speaker:They think walking into a Walmart
Speaker:store and seeing Mickey Mouse
Speaker:on a T-shirt and hey, you know that.
Speaker:That's licensing,
Speaker:but actually the scope of
Speaker:licensing is so much bigger.
Speaker:You know, Disney falls into
Speaker:the entertainment space, and that's
Speaker:certainly the highest profile
Speaker:way to license something.
Speaker:That's certainly the one
Speaker:that people know most.
Speaker:But actually, you can
Speaker:license a corporate brand.
Speaker:You know, we did a really great
Speaker:partnership with Every Man Jack
Speaker:earlier this year with John Deere,
Speaker:for example, an industrial brand.
Speaker:You can also license celebrities.
Speaker:You can.
Speaker:license food brands you can license
Speaker:sports brands or musicians brands
Speaker:so when we talk about licensing it
Speaker:is it is the entire scope of
Speaker:licensing borrowing somebody's IP
Speaker:and borrowing borrowing their
Speaker:goodwill borrowing their fan base
Speaker:and placing that on your product
Speaker:whether it is apparel you know a
Speaker:t-shirt company it could be a Food
Speaker:company, it it could be toys, it
Speaker:could be stationery, anything
Speaker:across the consumer products space.
Speaker:That's essentially what licensing
Speaker:is, borrowing someone else's IP
Speaker:to place on your product to with
Speaker:with a goal of increasing sales.
Speaker:I think one of the the first
Speaker:questions that like an an
Speaker:operator or like a founder that
Speaker:I would present that That idea
Speaker:too, like one of the first
Speaker:questions that they would have
Speaker:is what does it cost?
Speaker:And let's say a brand does
Speaker:like a few hundred thousands
Speaker:a month or like a few million a year
Speaker:in terms of revenue.
Speaker:Have never done something like that.
Speaker:Like what would it cost
Speaker:for something like that?
Speaker:And at what stage of the business
Speaker:does it begin to make sense?
Speaker:You know it's funny Andrej because I
Speaker:get contacted sometimes 10 times a
Speaker:day from companies that kind of need
Speaker:help with licensing and when I jump
Speaker:on a call with them The first
Speaker:question they ask is, "How much does
Speaker:it cost?" and the answer is is
Speaker:relatively long.
Speaker:So let me dive into the detail
Speaker:because it's not kind of like,
Speaker:"Oh, it's definitely going to
Speaker:cost this much." I usually have
Speaker:to ask a lot of questions
Speaker:because it depends on your
Speaker:category, your market, your
Speaker:sales projections, your the
Speaker:license that you want to sign.
Speaker:Who owns that license?
Speaker:But the general rule of thumb
Speaker:is that there are two things
Speaker:in the licensing agreement that
Speaker:everybody needs to be mindful of.
Speaker:The first is something that's
Speaker:called the minimum guarantee.
Speaker:The second is the royalty.
Speaker:So the minimum guarantee is what
Speaker:is an amount is a fee that you're
Speaker:going to agree to pay the licensor
Speaker:regardless of how much
Speaker:the product that you sell.
Speaker:Even if you sell zero
Speaker:product, if something doesn't go
Speaker:to plan, you end up not selling
Speaker:the product whatsoever.
Speaker:You're still on the hook
Speaker:for this minimum guarantee.
Speaker:Now the royalty.
Speaker:The royalty is the percentage
Speaker:of sales that you'll be
Speaker:paying to the licensor.
Speaker:The licensor is the company that
Speaker:you're licensing the IP from.
Speaker:Now, the royalty rate, you'll
Speaker:be reporting royalties
Speaker:on a quarterly basis, and that
Speaker:will offset the minimum
Speaker:guarantee that's been agreed.
Speaker:Let's go back to the minimum
Speaker:guarantee because you're probably
Speaker:wondering, like, how
Speaker:how do we even agree on a fee?
Speaker:What is that minimum guarantee?
Speaker:Going to be.
Speaker:Well, that most of the time it
Speaker:depends on sales forecasts.
Speaker:So let's say, for example,
Speaker:a T-shirt company wants
Speaker:to get a Hello Kitty license.
Speaker:They go to the Hello Kitty team.
Speaker:What they'll need to do in order
Speaker:to determine what the minimum
Speaker:guarantee is going to be is
Speaker:provide sales projections.
Speaker:If you had a Hello Kitty license
Speaker:for your T-shirt brand
Speaker:for say a two-year period,
Speaker:what would your sales be?
Speaker:And they'll look at at your
Speaker:sales forecast and they'll apply
Speaker:the royalty rate to that
Speaker:and then that will get them
Speaker:to the minimum guarantee.
Speaker:Now, royalty rate will typically be
Speaker:for an e-commerce brand.
Speaker:It's on average around 10%.
Speaker:So let's say, let's use a you know,
Speaker:an example of a T-shirt company
Speaker:wants a Hello Kitty license.
Speaker:They think that they'll do 10
Speaker:million dollars of sales
Speaker:within the first two years of
Speaker:Hello Kitty branded product.
Speaker:With a 10% royalty applied
Speaker:to that, we're looking at
Speaker:you know more or less $200,000
Speaker:as a minimum guarantee.
Speaker:That is essentially what you're
Speaker:on the hook for to pay for
Speaker:the Hello Kitty license regardless
Speaker:of how much that you sell.
Speaker:Now it's not all going
Speaker:to be due on signature.
Speaker:Usually there's a portion
Speaker:that's due on signature
Speaker:of the license, and then perhaps
Speaker:in another six months there's
Speaker:another scheduled payment.
Speaker:And then the remaining balance
Speaker:of the minimum guarantee will be
Speaker:paid over the course of the term.
Speaker:So that gives you a relatively
Speaker:good sense of
Speaker:how a licensing deal is structured.
Speaker:And hopefully I haven't complicated
Speaker:matters, but there is there
Speaker:is really no simple answer.
Speaker:It really comes down to a lot
Speaker:of different variables.
Speaker:Okay, yeah, I think
Speaker:I think it all makes sense.
Speaker:So there is the the minimum guarantee
Speaker:that you Commit to and then the
Speaker:royalty that gets like if the
Speaker:royalty exceeds the minimum
Speaker:guarantee you only have to pay the
Speaker:royalty right and if it's below that
Speaker:you still have to pay the the
Speaker:minimum guarantee yes exactly so
Speaker:every every quarter you'll be
Speaker:reporting royalties and those
Speaker:royalties will offset the minimum
Speaker:guarantee and once you overperform
Speaker:once you sell more than you said
Speaker:that you would then you're still
Speaker:paying but you're paying on the
Speaker:overages But you're right.
Speaker:If you don't reach the minimum
Speaker:guarantee, you're still
Speaker:paying the minimum guarantee.
Speaker:So that really is kind of like
Speaker:the benchmark of of success
Speaker:for a lot of licensing agreements.
Speaker:If you meet the minimum
Speaker:guarantee and exceed it
Speaker:in royalties, then that means that
Speaker:you've kind of overperformed.
Speaker:If you don't reach that minimum
Speaker:guarantee, then really you've
Speaker:underperformed as to kind
Speaker:of what everybody was expecting.
Speaker:I assume it's quite tough to to come
Speaker:up with those with those forecasts.
Speaker:I mean even in general like
Speaker:e-commerce it's very very difficult
Speaker:to have accurate forecasts.
Speaker:But then if you consider it's
Speaker:like you you test something new,
Speaker:you test like a product line
Speaker:or like a a brand that you've
Speaker:never worked with before or
Speaker:partnered up with before.
Speaker:Like how do you make sure that those
Speaker:forecasts are are accurate
Speaker:or how do you create them?
Speaker:Yeah, I think that what you what
Speaker:everybody needs to think about is
Speaker:what a typical, what have you done
Speaker:that is as close as possible as what
Speaker:you want to do with this particular
Speaker:license.
Speaker:So, for example, if you usually do,
Speaker:you know, four four
Speaker:drops a year, and that's what you're
Speaker:planning on doing with this
Speaker:particular license, use that
Speaker:as kind of like a benchmark.
Speaker:But what I would say is.
Speaker:When you're putting together
Speaker:a proposal for a licensor and you're
Speaker:sharing your forecast, there's two
Speaker:things that you should not do.
Speaker:The first is
Speaker:over-exaggerate the potential.
Speaker:Often, a lot of our clients come to
Speaker:us and they say, "Wow, if this
Speaker:really takes off, we're going to
Speaker:make 150 million dollars of sales in
Speaker:the first three years." We have to
Speaker:say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, do not take
Speaker:that to the licensor because they
Speaker:will put you on the hook for a
Speaker:minimum guarantee that that reflects
Speaker:that." And so, but then on the other
Speaker:side, others come to us and they
Speaker:know how a minimum guarantee is
Speaker:calculated and they want to they
Speaker:want as low risk as possible.
Speaker:So they'll say, "Oh, we think
Speaker:we'll do like fifty thousand
Speaker:dollars of sales and hope that
Speaker:they'll get a minimum guarantee
Speaker:of like 5k." But that's not going
Speaker:to work either because what
Speaker:licensor cares about a minimum
Speaker:guarantee of 5k?
Speaker:They all licensors
Speaker:are under resourced.
Speaker:They're not going
Speaker:to get out of bed for 5k.
Speaker:Like so, it needs
Speaker:to have a real sweet spot.
Speaker:It needs to be enough appealing
Speaker:enough of a financial offer for the
Speaker:licensor to say yes we're
Speaker:going to draft the licensing
Speaker:agreement we're going to release
Speaker:our assets we're going to go
Speaker:through the product development
Speaker:phase we're going to service this
Speaker:licensee and it's worth it but it
Speaker:it can't be too much so that the
Speaker:that you know you're essentially on
Speaker:the hook for a massive massive
Speaker:minimum guarantee that's just going
Speaker:to stifle cash flow Yeah, you have
Speaker:to to find the perfect balance
Speaker:where it's still interesting, for
Speaker:for the company and also yeah where
Speaker:you don't overexaggerate your the
Speaker:potential where you end up having
Speaker:to pay way more.
Speaker:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker:And you know I would always encourage
Speaker:we always encourage our clients
Speaker:like don't go for the most
Speaker:expensive license to begin with.
Speaker:You know it's it's actually really
Speaker:important for your first license
Speaker:to do really really well and for it
Speaker:to make sense commercially.
Speaker:Everybody wants to work with
Speaker:Disney or everybody wants to work
Speaker:with Bluey or Hello Kitty or or
Speaker:you know KPop Demon Hunters or
Speaker:or whatever the hottest IP is
Speaker:right now, but don't make that
Speaker:your first license because
Speaker:licensing is something that it's
Speaker:it's highly risky and licensing
Speaker:is something that just takes a
Speaker:lot of getting used to.
Speaker:Even our clients, where they have
Speaker:our guidance, takes a it takes them
Speaker:a while to get into into a rhythm.
Speaker:The other thing is that you probably
Speaker:won't get a Disney license
Speaker:for your first license anyway.
Speaker:You're kicking down that door.
Speaker:You know, if if you haven't proven
Speaker:that you can respect IP and that
Speaker:you can launch great licensed
Speaker:products, the Disneys of the
Speaker:world are are going to probably
Speaker:say, "Go and launch some other
Speaker:licensed product and come back to
Speaker:us when when you have kind of."
Speaker:Proof of concept that licensing
Speaker:works for you.
Speaker:That's that's actually
Speaker:a really important component.
Speaker:There is a handful of licensors
Speaker:that we work with, where we know
Speaker:they're really open to business.
Speaker:They're open to working with new
Speaker:innovative companies
Speaker:and and that their business model
Speaker:and the way that they're working
Speaker:leans well into e-commerce.
Speaker:And then there's some licensors where
Speaker:they are they're more traditional.
Speaker:They're focused a lot
Speaker:on physical retail.
Speaker:They want to do less deals with
Speaker:bigger companies, the 80-20
Speaker:rule, because they have
Speaker:resource challenges and they can
Speaker:be more selective because
Speaker:they've got really hot IP.
Speaker:So I think finding the right licensor
Speaker:for your first license is
Speaker:absolutely critical for your
Speaker:long-term licensing success.
Speaker:So who does who does say yes
Speaker:to a brand that has like
Speaker:never done that before?
Speaker:Like do you have any
Speaker:specific names or examples?
Speaker:I probably wouldn't want to go
Speaker:into like specific as to who
Speaker:says yes because it it doesn't it it
Speaker:often changes, right?
Speaker:A particular licensor this year might
Speaker:have really high targets and they
Speaker:might be coming to us and saying,
Speaker:"Hey, we want we want new clients.
Speaker:We're open to new business." And then
Speaker:they might have a restructure
Speaker:or things might change and next year
Speaker:they might they might be much more
Speaker:conservative, much more selective.
Speaker:So I wouldn't want to.
Speaker:say specifically only because it
Speaker:might not not date well but you
Speaker:know the typical rule of thumb is
Speaker:that that the bigger licensors
Speaker:kind of like the big studios and
Speaker:the properties that are kind of
Speaker:like the hottest properties in the
Speaker:world right now are often on the
Speaker:more selective side and those that
Speaker:are kind of in in less demand but
Speaker:still have a kind of like a a
Speaker:strong customer base fan base you
Speaker:know those ones Are typically more
Speaker:open for business.
Speaker:And why would you say why are
Speaker:the big ones so selective?
Speaker:Is it more because they're afraid,
Speaker:like because of the financial
Speaker:opportunity not being big enough
Speaker:for them to to even care, or is it
Speaker:more about the the risk of the
Speaker:brand being exposed to like a a
Speaker:product maybe that is not not
Speaker:aligned with with them.
Speaker:I think it's all I think it's all of
Speaker:that all that you mentioned Andrej.
Speaker:I would say also that the big brands
Speaker:they are struggling with resource.
Speaker:The licensing industry is
Speaker:is under you know a bit of
Speaker:strain at the moment from
Speaker:a resource standpoint.
Speaker:Every licensor that I know is
Speaker:stretched extremely thin, and so
Speaker:legal teams are struggling to get
Speaker:licensing agreements out within
Speaker:a reasonable amount of time.
Speaker:Product development.
Speaker:Teams are working their butts off,
Speaker:but you know there's they've they've
Speaker:got thousands of approvals in their
Speaker:inbox that they need to manage.
Speaker:You know you've got accounts
Speaker:teams and deal makers that have
Speaker:these really really insane
Speaker:targets that they need that they
Speaker:need to meet that is preventing
Speaker:them from doing business with
Speaker:smaller companies and focusing
Speaker:on how can they do more with the
Speaker:bigger companies.
Speaker:And and and also because often a lot
Speaker:of them Are in high demand and so
Speaker:they can actually be more selective.
Speaker:They can say, "Okay, if we're
Speaker:gonna if we're gonna have 250
Speaker:clients, you know, on our on our
Speaker:roster, you know, we we're gonna
Speaker:select the 250 or the 100 or the
Speaker:50 clients that are kind of like
Speaker:the best.
Speaker:You know, we're gonna work with Lego.
Speaker:We're gonna work with Mattel
Speaker:and Hasbro and kind
Speaker:of like we're gonna work with
Speaker:the big toy companies.
Speaker:We're gonna work with."
Speaker:Retailers direct.
Speaker:We're going to do business
Speaker:with Walmart directly.
Speaker:You know that that those are
Speaker:the decisions that a lot of
Speaker:the licensors are making right now.
Speaker:Is that how can we do more with less?
Speaker:When you say like
Speaker:the the the resources for a lot of
Speaker:licensors are are missing, is it
Speaker:just like manpower?
Speaker:Do they not have enough people
Speaker:on the team to just like there's
Speaker:more demand that they can that they
Speaker:can supply than they can supply.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, there's a lot
Speaker:of consolidation that's happened
Speaker:in the entertainment world
Speaker:over the last decade
Speaker:and continues to happen.
Speaker:You know, this Paramount and Warner Bros.
Speaker:merger is looming over us,
Speaker:expected to happen early next year.
Speaker:My expectation is that that it
Speaker:will happen, and you know that is
Speaker:two major forces in
Speaker:entertainment combining to one.
Speaker:You know, and David Ellison
Speaker:has said expecting six billion
Speaker:dollars of efficiencies.
Speaker:Well, what does efficiencies mean?
Speaker:Efficiencies mean
Speaker:redundancies, right?
Speaker:So I'm actually very concerned
Speaker:for my colleagues, you know,
Speaker:those that are working at
Speaker:Paramount, those that are
Speaker:working at Warner Bros.
Speaker:Discovery, because when they
Speaker:merge, there will be
Speaker:redundancies, and they both have
Speaker:massive portfolios on the
Speaker:Paramount side.
Speaker:You know, SpongeBob, Yellowstone,
Speaker:Paw Patrol on Warner Bros.
Speaker:have got Looney Tunes, DC
Speaker:Superheroes, Scooby-Doo,
Speaker:Tom and Jerry, Harry Potter.
Speaker:You know, at the moment, you
Speaker:know, those those properties are
Speaker:being serviced, but when they
Speaker:are combined, they will probably
Speaker:let people go, and the same
Speaker:amount of people are going to be
Speaker:expected to manage this enormous
Speaker:portfolio.
Speaker:That is really happening
Speaker:across the board.
Speaker:There is a lot of consolidation
Speaker:happening, and the licensing
Speaker:teams, the licensing
Speaker:divisions, don't get enough credit.
Speaker:They don't get.
Speaker:you know the resource that they that
Speaker:they need or the focus because
Speaker:there's always something bigger
Speaker:going on so all the big studios are
Speaker:focused on box office you know how
Speaker:how is box office going driving
Speaker:people to cinemas you know how can
Speaker:we get the next billion dollar film
Speaker:or they're focused on on their
Speaker:streaming platform you know whether
Speaker:it's Netflix Disney+ Paramount+
Speaker:HBO Max you know they are
Speaker:focused that is such an important
Speaker:revenue stream for them that has to
Speaker:work And then consumer products, my
Speaker:argument is, it actually supports
Speaker:all of those areas of the
Speaker:businesses.
Speaker:It supports theatrical releases.
Speaker:You know, when you're walking down
Speaker:an aisle of Walmart and you see,
Speaker:you know, Paw Patrol product and
Speaker:you're reminded that the new Paw
Speaker:Patrol film is in cinema, you
Speaker:know, consumer products plays a
Speaker:very important role of driving
Speaker:people to cinema or driving people
Speaker:to streaming, but.
Speaker:Unfortunately, I feel
Speaker:the licensors and the studios are
Speaker:really focused on those getting
Speaker:those right, and licensing
Speaker:has has just always been,
Speaker:you know, a lower tier priority.
Speaker:Unfortunately.
Speaker:And what would you say, like when a
Speaker:brand wants to to do such a such a
Speaker:deal, like how long does it usually
Speaker:take from like the the first email
Speaker:until they're able to sell the
Speaker:products?
Speaker:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker:We we we always give our clients
Speaker:a guideline of about 12 months.
Speaker:So I would say that the first three
Speaker:months of that is negotiating
Speaker:the deal, having the license
Speaker:drafted, and signing the license.
Speaker:After that point, you'll get
Speaker:assets released to you,
Speaker:and then you have to start
Speaker:the product development process.
Speaker:So what does the product
Speaker:development process look like?
Speaker:Well, this is one of the most crucial
Speaker:Responsibilities that a licensee
Speaker:has, because that product that they
Speaker:bring to market has to be exactly as
Speaker:the licensor, needs it to be.
Speaker:On brand, look with with
Speaker:the color palettes perfect.
Speaker:If it's a molded product, it needs
Speaker:to look exactly like that character.
Speaker:And so, after they release assets,
Speaker:you'll be responsible for putting
Speaker:together concept designs, saying.
Speaker:This is how we see the IP
Speaker:being applied to my product,
Speaker:whatever the product is.
Speaker:And then you'll need to submit it.
Speaker:They'll take 10 working days
Speaker:to review and provide feedback.
Speaker:And their feedback, usually
Speaker:in the initial concept,
Speaker:they'll want changes.
Speaker:So they'll come back and say,
Speaker:"Look, we're not, we don't think
Speaker:the IP has been applied right, or
Speaker:this pose is is not approved, or
Speaker:please add the logo here, move
Speaker:this here, move this here." Then
Speaker:you need to make that change and
Speaker:resubmit it, and then the 10 days
Speaker:starts again, and so you can see
Speaker:how this all adds up.
Speaker:Once you get through the concept
Speaker:stage, they need to see
Speaker:pre-production samples, so they'll
Speaker:want to want to see samples of how
Speaker:is it actually going to look.
Speaker:You either have to send that to
Speaker:them, or you can take really great,
Speaker:clear photos so they can really
Speaker:understand that it's looking
Speaker:it's looking great as expected.
Speaker:Once that's approved, again,
Speaker:if there's any changes.
Speaker:Make the changes, the 10 days
Speaker:resets, resubmit, and then once
Speaker:that's approved, then you have
Speaker:then you can go to production,
Speaker:but you need to provide them
Speaker:with final production samples
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:That process can sometimes take
Speaker:nine months.
Speaker:So when we're saying three months of
Speaker:the contract process, nine months
Speaker:for product development, from the
Speaker:moment you speak with the licensor,
Speaker:providing everything goes well, to
Speaker:when you can actually offer your
Speaker:licensed range for sale, is about a
Speaker:year.
Speaker:Do you have like any benchmarks
Speaker:on like how many revision
Speaker:rounds it usually takes?
Speaker:I guess it it varies a lot
Speaker:based on the the licensor
Speaker:and also the the brand.
Speaker:Yeah, there's there's a lot of
Speaker:factors that go into that.
Speaker:One is how particular
Speaker:is the licensor?
Speaker:Two, how good is the licensee?
Speaker:Like how good is their creative team?
Speaker:How well can they sort of understand
Speaker:instructions and how willing
Speaker:are they to make the changes?
Speaker:You know that.
Speaker:That's a big part of it as well.
Speaker:Sometimes the licensor will come
Speaker:back and say, "We'd prefer you to
Speaker:make this change, this change,
Speaker:this change." And the licensee is
Speaker:like, "Well, no, we're really,
Speaker:we're really adamant that it
Speaker:needs to be this way." And there
Speaker:can be a bit of a push-pull that
Speaker:goes on, and that really eats up
Speaker:time as well.
Speaker:So it it depends on on a lot
Speaker:of those kinds of things.
Speaker:Every product development journey is
Speaker:wildly different,
Speaker:and you know that's why we we
Speaker:have a product development
Speaker:team of three people that.
Speaker:All day long they're living
Speaker:and breathing product development
Speaker:for our clients because it's
Speaker:such a seriously important
Speaker:part of the licensing process.
Speaker:Yeah, I think I think Davie Fogarty
Speaker:mentioned that that before, but
Speaker:also like for a lot of brands like
Speaker:that have no experience with with
Speaker:licensing at all, it could make
Speaker:sense to like rather than Try to
Speaker:get a licensor right away, reach
Speaker:out to other brands like similar
Speaker:size, similar like product industry
Speaker:potentially, and do like a
Speaker:partnership with them and try
Speaker:something similar with them.
Speaker:Do you have like any
Speaker:experience with that?
Speaker:And also, if then they wanna work
Speaker:with a with a licensor, do they
Speaker:take that as like credibility, as
Speaker:like a track record, or is that
Speaker:not really not really relevant?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, if we're talking
Speaker:about a collaboration where
Speaker:there's no kind of like license
Speaker:fee exchanged, where it's perhaps
Speaker:you know something where you know
Speaker:they benefit and you benefit and
Speaker:and you know it's not a licensing
Speaker:arrangement, it's kind of like a
Speaker:collab.
Speaker:Absolutely, I mean that's something
Speaker:we we don't do that.
Speaker:We we're purely focused on licensing,
Speaker:but I know a lot of brands
Speaker:kind of do that as dipping their toe
Speaker:into what licensing could be like.
Speaker:And absolutely, it adds credibility.
Speaker:You can go to a licensor and say,
Speaker:"Look, we haven't done licensing
Speaker:before, but we've done this collab.
Speaker:So this just shows that we we can
Speaker:respect, you know, third-party IP,
Speaker:and you know, we we we've done
Speaker:this before." And so, yeah,
Speaker:absolutely, I think licensors
Speaker:would see that and give them kind
Speaker:of like extra points, for for
Speaker:something like that.
Speaker:You've been you've been on the other
Speaker:side of the table as well.
Speaker:Like you sat at at Warner Bros.,
Speaker:like reading those those pitches.
Speaker:What was that actually like and like
Speaker:what what landed on your desk?
Speaker:Yeah, so I was so lucky.
Speaker:My role was Manager of FMCG and Promotions,
Speaker:so fast-moving
Speaker:consumer goods and promotions.
Speaker:So promotions was anything
Speaker:from you know Happy Meals.
Speaker:I did Looney Tunes Happy Meal,
Speaker:for example, with the toys.
Speaker:Or it could have been, you know,
Speaker:I think around the time it
Speaker:was the the new Superman, not
Speaker:the new new Superman, probably
Speaker:two or three Supermans ago.
Speaker:But I was working on that film
Speaker:when we did a big promotion with
Speaker:Schick Razor Blades that was across
Speaker:across Asia Pacific.
Speaker:So those kinds of things.
Speaker:What I will say is working for Warner Bros.
Speaker:is certainly much different
Speaker:than working for David Born,
Speaker:working for me and Born Licensing.
Speaker:One of the reasons is because when
Speaker:you email someone or if you call
Speaker:and you're saying, you know, I'm
Speaker:from Warner Bros., people are
Speaker:more likely to return your call.
Speaker:People know that name.
Speaker:They see the email.
Speaker:Oh wow, David dot born at
Speaker:warnerbros dot com.
Speaker:Like wow, this is like cool.
Speaker:How glamorous.
Speaker:And so you're much more
Speaker:likely to get a meeting.
Speaker:You know, in my early days
Speaker:of having Born Licensing, it
Speaker:was much more challenging.
Speaker:People were like, who are you?
Speaker:People now are starting to
Speaker:to know who I am after 12 years.
Speaker:Thank goodness, but.
Speaker:You know, it's much easier to kind of
Speaker:reach out and ask for things
Speaker:when you're you're coming from
Speaker:someone like Warner Brothers.
Speaker:I would say that you know we we did
Speaker:have the situation where there was
Speaker:a lot of people that wanted to work
Speaker:with us, but you know we had to
Speaker:make a really smart assessment as
Speaker:to where we where we were going to
Speaker:get bang for our buck, so to speak,
Speaker:in terms of the time that we
Speaker:invested.
Speaker:So we we often had a lot of food
Speaker:companies, beverage companies
Speaker:coming to us saying that they
Speaker:wanted to license our IP, but I
Speaker:had to do the exact same
Speaker:assessment that I've kind of
Speaker:spoken to you about.
Speaker:What are their sales forecasts?
Speaker:Importantly, what's
Speaker:their distribution?
Speaker:Now, back when I was working
Speaker:at Warner Bros., e-commerce
Speaker:wasn't as much of a thing, and so
Speaker:I don't think I had any
Speaker:e-commerce clients at all.
Speaker:Actually, it was like 15 years ago,
Speaker:so it was very much retail.
Speaker:So my number one question
Speaker:I'd ask them is like.
Speaker:What what retail
Speaker:distribution do you have?
Speaker:And if they didn't have retail
Speaker:distribution, the question
Speaker:was really like, how
Speaker:how are you going to sell this?
Speaker:You know, you can't use the license
Speaker:to kind of get on shelves.
Speaker:You need to have distribution
Speaker:first, and license is
Speaker:very much complementary.
Speaker:And this is something that that
Speaker:leads me to, you know, what I would
Speaker:say to an e-commerce company or
Speaker:or any company really that
Speaker:wants to get into licensing.
Speaker:If you don't have your If you don't
Speaker:have a buttoned-up business, if you
Speaker:don't have strong cash flow, if you
Speaker:don't have an existing customer
Speaker:base, if you don't have really
Speaker:strong, if you're not confident in
Speaker:your manufacturing processes and
Speaker:your factories that you're working
Speaker:with, then licensing is is an
Speaker:absolute non-starter.
Speaker:Licensing makes great companies
Speaker:and great products even more great.
Speaker:But it can really be a burden
Speaker:if you if you are not
Speaker:running a great business.
Speaker:Licensing does not save companies.
Speaker:It does not save brands.
Speaker:It it makes things worse if you're
Speaker:if you're really struggling
Speaker:because there is an additional
Speaker:you know stakeholder involved
Speaker:with the process now, and you've got
Speaker:additional overheads.
Speaker:You've got additional processes.
Speaker:You'll have to hire people
Speaker:that understand licensing.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:You know, I I I would always
Speaker:encourage people to make sure that
Speaker:you're going after licensing
Speaker:for the right reasons.
Speaker:Yeah, and I think you you mentioned
Speaker:you said yourself before that
Speaker:licensing should add fuel
Speaker:to the fire that is already burning.
Speaker:When would you say when is
Speaker:a brand ready for that?
Speaker:Like, do you have
Speaker:a specific threshold?
Speaker:Yeah, I I.
Speaker:I wouldn't say there's
Speaker:like an exact number.
Speaker:I mean, let me talk about one
Speaker:of our clients, Plum Deluxe.
Speaker:So I had chat with Andy Hayes
Speaker:yesterday, who's
Speaker:the founder of Plum Deluxe.
Speaker:I spoke to him about my podcast.
Speaker:I've got a I've got a podcast
Speaker:episode coming up next month.
Speaker:It's all about e-commerce.
Speaker:And so Plum Deluxe, they sell
Speaker:these like really beautiful
Speaker:loose leaf tea collections.
Speaker:And last year they celebrated
Speaker:10 years and they'd
Speaker:never done licensing before.
Speaker:but Christmas time they launched
Speaker:their first licensed collection
Speaker:with Peanuts so Snoopy in the game
Speaker:and I I was sort of like asking him
Speaker:you know why after 10 years did you
Speaker:did you want to do it and he said
Speaker:well you know first he's always
Speaker:kind of had his eye on licensing
Speaker:and he's he kind of like never got
Speaker:to the point where you know he he
Speaker:got there until he sort of like
Speaker:reached out to us but you know I
Speaker:think that e-commerce is is pretty
Speaker:tough out there and You know Andy
Speaker:and a lot of e-commerce companies
Speaker:are just looking for ways to bring
Speaker:freshness to their own customer
Speaker:base, but at the same time find
Speaker:ways to encourage new people to to
Speaker:to learn about their brand.
Speaker:You know and and suddenly
Speaker:he was able to tap into this brand
Speaker:Peanuts who has this generational
Speaker:fandom who has been
Speaker:that's been around for 75 years.
Speaker:That children love, grandparents
Speaker:love, and everybody in between
Speaker:love, and so he was able to kind
Speaker:of like tap into that fan base.
Speaker:And they sold out that
Speaker:Christmas collection sold out
Speaker:in 12 days, and it was much faster
Speaker:than they expected.
Speaker:And really importantly, he said
Speaker:he said that he spent less on
Speaker:ads than he normally would.
Speaker:And the Peanuts license did a lot
Speaker:of the heavy lifting for him.
Speaker:So think about it when
Speaker:people see a Peanuts product.
Speaker:One, they stop the scroll.
Speaker:Oh, I love Peanuts.
Speaker:You know, what is this kind of thing?
Speaker:And they're more likely
Speaker:to share it on social.
Speaker:They're more likely to, you know,
Speaker:send it to a friend or whatever.
Speaker:And you know, they're more likely to
Speaker:to click and try
Speaker:and discover more about it.
Speaker:He also recently launched
Speaker:a collection with
Speaker:Strawberry Shortcake and this
Speaker:one did even better.
Speaker:Had an even stronger effect.
Speaker:He called it the best performing.
Speaker:Meta ads that he's run
Speaker:since he started advertising
Speaker:on the platform in 2018, so he out
Speaker:it outperformed everything else
Speaker:in their in their catalog.
Speaker:So when when we talk about
Speaker:licensing IP, a lot of e-commerce
Speaker:founders and companies should be
Speaker:thinking beyond that particular
Speaker:range because what happened for
Speaker:Andy at at Plum Deluxe which was
Speaker:quite interesting was that
Speaker:Strawberry Shortcake and Peanuts
Speaker:were drawing people in, but they
Speaker:were putting other things in their
Speaker:basket at the same time.
Speaker:So they were buying the Peanut
Speaker:stuff, they were buying
Speaker:Strawberry Shortcake, but then
Speaker:they were buying other kind of
Speaker:non-licensed stuff as well.
Speaker:And then suddenly they were signing
Speaker:up for his newsletters, they were
Speaker:following him on social, and they
Speaker:are now plum deluxe customers.
Speaker:So it's like a really great strategy
Speaker:for customer acquisition as well.
Speaker:Yeah, 100% agree.
Speaker:And it's funny that you mentioned
Speaker:that example, because I was working
Speaker:with with an e-commerce brand
Speaker:and also in retail, that had exactly
Speaker:the same thing happening to to them.
Speaker:They had like different corporation
Speaker:different licensing deals going,
Speaker:and they also had Peanuts in there.
Speaker:And when we were running,
Speaker:whether it was Google Ads, Meta
Speaker:Ads, like no matter where.
Speaker:The Peanuts collection was
Speaker:always the best performing one.
Speaker:It would get, as you mentioned,
Speaker:the highest click-through
Speaker:rates, highest engagement
Speaker:rates, most people to go
Speaker:to the site, like lower costs.
Speaker:And whenever we would run that, it
Speaker:would outperform everything else.
Speaker:And that was for a $3,000 like
Speaker:suitcase, that you would not just
Speaker:buy like like just from seeing one
Speaker:ad, but we were also seeing that
Speaker:way more people were subscribing to
Speaker:the emails.
Speaker:They were also buying other products.
Speaker:Like not that many people were
Speaker:buying those suitcases, but it
Speaker:would get generate like so many new
Speaker:people onto the onto the brand onto
Speaker:the site and they would buy other
Speaker:products and yeah exactly what you
Speaker:mentioned.
Speaker:That's the thing about
Speaker:Peanuts, right?
Speaker:I mean we're going through a
Speaker:stage at the moment and I think
Speaker:it's been building and I don't
Speaker:think it's going anywhere where
Speaker:where nostalgia is having like
Speaker:a really really really big
Speaker:moment.
Speaker:Brands like Peanuts, brands like
Speaker:Care Bears, brands like Hello
Speaker:Kitty, Strawberry Shortcake,
Speaker:these are all brands that that
Speaker:we grew up with, you know, when
Speaker:we were younger in the 80s and
Speaker:90s.
Speaker:And now, you know, our generation has
Speaker:disposable income, and you know
Speaker:we we like to go and buy stuff.
Speaker:And you know these are the kind
Speaker:of brands they have that
Speaker:you know that kind of generational
Speaker:awareness, those broad sweeping.
Speaker:fan bases, you know, it it's
Speaker:no surprise that it's that
Speaker:it's doing really well.
Speaker:I love Peanuts.
Speaker:My niece and nephew love Peanuts.
Speaker:My parents love Peanuts.
Speaker:So, you know, it's just it's
Speaker:just one of those brands that's
Speaker:immediately recognizable.
Speaker:I don't know if you saw,
Speaker:but Starbucks have just released
Speaker:a Peanuts collection oh wow.
Speaker:That I am predicting.
Speaker:I predicted it.
Speaker:I put it on LinkedIn this morning.
Speaker:That it will probably sell
Speaker:out within 24 hours.
Speaker:It's a really beautiful range
Speaker:to kind of bring in fall.
Speaker:So there's a lot of poses of Snoopy
Speaker:with and Charlie Brown with like
Speaker:pumpkins and things like that.
Speaker:And yeah, it's it's
Speaker:gonna sell like crazy.
Speaker:It's it's so good to see a brand
Speaker:like that doing so well.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Who doesn't love love Peanuts?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Where where would you say like
Speaker:where does this go go wrong?
Speaker:I mean, you mentioned an example
Speaker:of like where it went great,
Speaker:and where it improved
Speaker:sales, improved marketing.
Speaker:But what mistakes
Speaker:do you see the the most?
Speaker:Yeah, a few watch outs.
Speaker:You know again I'll say
Speaker:licensing isn't for everybody.
Speaker:You know a lot of people
Speaker:would expect me to come up.
Speaker:My entire business is
Speaker:licensing, right?
Speaker:And you know everyone's like oh
Speaker:David you should you should really
Speaker:be selling licensing and you know I
Speaker:Licensing is not for everybody.
Speaker:You'll never see me say
Speaker:everybody should be doing licensing.
Speaker:You know, it it it needs to be a very
Speaker:thoughtful approach to licensing.
Speaker:Cash flow is really important.
Speaker:So we talked about
Speaker:the minimum guarantee.
Speaker:We talked about the royalty.
Speaker:So you need to make sure that
Speaker:you've got the right cash flow
Speaker:to service the minimum guarantee.
Speaker:You've got to make sure that
Speaker:you've got the the right margin
Speaker:to service the royalty rate.
Speaker:What I will say though is a lot
Speaker:of our clients are able to increase.
Speaker:their price to absorb the royalty
Speaker:that they need to pay to the
Speaker:licensor because consumers will
Speaker:typically pay a premium they'll
Speaker:usually pay more for a licensed
Speaker:product so that that's one way to
Speaker:to sort of work around the royalty
Speaker:in addition to cash flow the
Speaker:product development process I I
Speaker:mentioned it can be slow and
Speaker:patience is really really important
Speaker:particularly for your first one you
Speaker:know we we have a lot of E-commerce
Speaker:clients in particular that they're
Speaker:they're moving a million miles an
Speaker:hour.
Speaker:They they're dropping products on
Speaker:a you know collections on a regular
Speaker:basis and they kind of expect that
Speaker:they can get a license and then just
Speaker:and then just go for it.
Speaker:But it's a very structured process
Speaker:to get those products
Speaker:to market including things like
Speaker:factory checks and testing.
Speaker:So you know products need to be
Speaker:tested to make sure that they can.
Speaker:They can be sold
Speaker:in the market that you're selling.
Speaker:There's a lot of things that
Speaker:you need to consider
Speaker:to make sure that the licensor
Speaker:is comfortable with you selling
Speaker:product with their IP on them.
Speaker:Something also that particularly
Speaker:e-commerce brands struggle
Speaker:with is marketing approvals.
Speaker:You know, they every single
Speaker:marketing asset, whether it's a
Speaker:social media post, if it's going on
Speaker:the website, if it's going on your
Speaker:newsletter, if it's You know a
Speaker:press release or whatever, it needs
Speaker:to be approved.
Speaker:And the licensing industry is still
Speaker:pretty old school, admittedly.
Speaker:Everything gets submitted, it goes
Speaker:in a queue, and it gets approved
Speaker:in the order that it arrived in.
Speaker:And that's why it can sometimes
Speaker:take 10 working days.
Speaker:And so, e-commerce brands, they are
Speaker:used to being responsive.
Speaker:They wake up on the day, they
Speaker:see a trend, they record a video,
Speaker:they go live within a matter
Speaker:of hours, and then they see
Speaker:the sales kind of come through.
Speaker:You just can't.
Speaker:Do that with licensing because
Speaker:they just can't provide approval
Speaker:within a couple of hours, and so
Speaker:you know allowing sometimes 10
Speaker:working days for approval is
Speaker:kind of what needs to happen on
Speaker:from our side on the Born to License
Speaker:side.
Speaker:If there's urgent things that need
Speaker:to be approved, we always do our
Speaker:very best to get them approved
Speaker:within a certain amount of time.
Speaker:But what we typically do
Speaker:with marketing approvals is we
Speaker:have a marketing kickoff
Speaker:two months before launch.
Speaker:So two months before launch,
Speaker:we get our client to start
Speaker:thinking, "What are you going
Speaker:to do about social media?
Speaker:And what are you going to do if your
Speaker:product sells out straight away?
Speaker:What are you going to do
Speaker:if your product doesn't
Speaker:sell through as expected?
Speaker:What are you going to do if
Speaker:the product is still out there
Speaker:in a month and you need to
Speaker:find new ways to sell the product?
Speaker:Let's prepare for every eventuality
Speaker:and get all those approved
Speaker:so that when you launch, all
Speaker:those scenarios are covered,
Speaker:and then you don't have to.
Speaker:feel like you need to, eh,
Speaker:that you can't respond to kind
Speaker:of what's happening in real time.
Speaker:And another thing to
Speaker:consider that's sort of linked
Speaker:to that is influencers.
Speaker:So a lot of e-commerce brands I know
Speaker:they're working with influencers.
Speaker:They send them the product,
Speaker:they do an unboxing, or they
Speaker:wear it, or they give it
Speaker:to their kids or whatever.
Speaker:Video it, send it
Speaker:over, and up it goes.
Speaker:With licensing, every single
Speaker:influencer needs
Speaker:to be approved as well.
Speaker:The reason for that is that licensors
Speaker:cannot have anyone partnering.
Speaker:With product that licenses licenses
Speaker:their IP, they have to be vetted.
Speaker:They have to be checked.
Speaker:We have to bear in mind all the time
Speaker:whenever you're working with
Speaker:a property when you're licensing IP,
Speaker:someone else's IP, it could
Speaker:be worth billions of dollars.
Speaker:Think about how much the Marvel
Speaker:universe is worth.
Speaker:Think about how much
Speaker:the Star Wars franchise is worth.
Speaker:These are billion, multi-billion
Speaker:dollar brands, and.
Speaker:They the the the licensors and the
Speaker:owners of that IP, they're not
Speaker:going to take any risks, and so
Speaker:they want to vet and make sure
Speaker:that every single influencer you
Speaker:work with is going to be approved
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:There's there's a lot to be
Speaker:considered if these processes that
Speaker:I'm talking about aren't palatable.
Speaker:If you don't feel like you have
Speaker:the patience for it, if you don't
Speaker:feel like you have the internal
Speaker:resource to do it, if you don't have
Speaker:somebody that can focus.
Speaker:100% on licensing internally,
Speaker:you have two options.
Speaker:One, just accept that licensing
Speaker:probably isn't right for you right
Speaker:now, or two, hire an expert.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that just because
Speaker:I am one and this is the service
Speaker:that my company provides.
Speaker:There are other great people
Speaker:out there in the licensing
Speaker:world that also can support.
Speaker:I think that we have
Speaker:the best possible team.
Speaker:You know, we have a team of 16
Speaker:people now at at Born and they're
Speaker:incredible, but there's a lot
Speaker:of great people out there.
Speaker:So if you're not sure, if you feel
Speaker:like you don't have the resource,
Speaker:if you feel like you need
Speaker:somebody to hold your hand, then
Speaker:you know reach out to a licensing
Speaker:expert and make sure that even
Speaker:just for the for your first
Speaker:licensing launch that you can
Speaker:have someone sort of guiding you
Speaker:through the process.
Speaker:What's the the most expensive mistake
Speaker:that you have seen actually happen?
Speaker:Oh, I mean, thank goodness none
Speaker:of our clients have launched
Speaker:product that had to be recalled
Speaker:because they weren't approved.
Speaker:Like we are very, very careful
Speaker:about that, but that's
Speaker:something that can happen.
Speaker:So you know if if a company goes
Speaker:live with product and they
Speaker:actually manufacture, you know
Speaker:they they do a production run of a
Speaker:product that hasn't been approved
Speaker:for whatever reason, and that
Speaker:could be that the logos Not right,
Speaker:or the character is not in the
Speaker:right skin tone, or or you know
Speaker:the color palette's not right, or
Speaker:the legal line's in the wrong
Speaker:place, or or there's just
Speaker:something that is different to the
Speaker:final product that was approved.
Speaker:Then then they might have to
Speaker:destroy all of that product,
Speaker:and that can be extremely costly.
Speaker:Yeah, and let's say a brand
Speaker:with a license goes to to sell
Speaker:the company at at some point.
Speaker:Like that, does the license make
Speaker:the the brand worth more,
Speaker:or does the the buyer find out that
Speaker:it doesn't doesn't transfer?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I would say that yes,
Speaker:if you're doing licensing, a buyer
Speaker:could could see that to make your
Speaker:brand or your company more
Speaker:valuable, but at the same time,
Speaker:within the licensing agreement,
Speaker:typically, you can't In the event
Speaker:of a sale, you would, the the
Speaker:licensor would have the option to
Speaker:not continue, so they want to know
Speaker:who's buying the company.
Speaker:Sometimes they'll include language
Speaker:in the contract where you have to
Speaker:pay a fee, so you're selling your
Speaker:company and you have to pay the
Speaker:licensor a fee when you sell the
Speaker:company that's pre-agreed in the
Speaker:licensing agreement because they
Speaker:know.
Speaker:That by you having this
Speaker:portfolio of licenses, it makes
Speaker:your company more valuable.
Speaker:So I would say anybody that's doing
Speaker:licensing and is interested in
Speaker:selling the business, make sure you
Speaker:read, read, read your licensing
Speaker:contract so that you know exactly
Speaker:what your obligations are in the
Speaker:event of a sale.
Speaker:Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker:Now, as the as the last section,
Speaker:I want to do a quick round
Speaker:of overrated or underrated.
Speaker:So I'll just give you like
Speaker:a quick bullet point or item.
Speaker:And you have to say whether
Speaker:it's overrated or underrated.
Speaker:All right, let's do it.
Speaker:The first one is Disney
Speaker:as a first license.
Speaker:I would say overrated
Speaker:because it's almost impossible.
Speaker:What about anime
Speaker:for a Western DTC brand?
Speaker:Oh, definitely underrated.
Speaker:Anime is so hot right now.
Speaker:There's not enough people doing it.
Speaker:What about 80s 80s nostalgia?
Speaker:Oh, underrated.
Speaker:There's a lot of people doing it now,
Speaker:but the proof is in the pudding.
Speaker:It's doing so well, so I'm gonna stay
Speaker:say underrated still.
Speaker:And what about a character in your
Speaker:ads instead of a content creator?
Speaker:Oh, definitely,
Speaker:definitely underrated.
Speaker:It doesn't happen enough.
Speaker:I'm banging on about this
Speaker:all the time about how.
Speaker:Advertisers should be
Speaker:putting characters in
Speaker:advertising more often.
Speaker:It's still so rare to see, so
Speaker:underrated for sure.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:Is there a specific license
Speaker:that you'd bet on for 2027?
Speaker:Oh yes.
Speaker:So Bluey has a movie next year
Speaker:launching in August.
Speaker:Bluey is already the number one
Speaker:preschool brand in the world.
Speaker:I think it's the most watched.
Speaker:Show on Disney+ as well,
Speaker:in terms of minutes,
Speaker:and it will have a huge blockbuster
Speaker:moment with its premiere.
Speaker:Earlier this year, I
Speaker:went to a showcase.
Speaker:Actually, I've been to to
Speaker:two or three showcases hosted by
Speaker:BBC Worldwide this year,
Speaker:and every time they showed a snippet
Speaker:of the new film,
Speaker:and it is absolutely incredible.
Speaker:Only a month or so ago, it
Speaker:was actually released to the.
Speaker:The public, the new kind of
Speaker:3D CGI kind of version
Speaker:of the characters, and now everybody
Speaker:knows what it's about.
Speaker:And I, you know, I had to sign
Speaker:strict non-disclosure agreements.
Speaker:I wasn't allowed to talk about
Speaker:it, but now that it's out
Speaker:there, I can talk about it and
Speaker:just say, like, honestly, I was
Speaker:a bit concerned going from kind
Speaker:of like the 2D traditional
Speaker:bluey, art, in the in the
Speaker:series to this 3D.
Speaker:I feel like some brands really
Speaker:struggle to make that leap.
Speaker:But the moment I saw it, I
Speaker:was like, wow, it's perfect.
Speaker:It looks so incredible.
Speaker:So next year is going to be all
Speaker:about Bluey, and I would say Shrek 5
Speaker:is going to be massive as well.
Speaker:That's I think around June, so
Speaker:it's going to be a big, another
Speaker:big year for Shrek next year.
Speaker:And then of course, Frozen 3
Speaker:is in December, so that's going
Speaker:to be the big holiday film
Speaker:of 2027 will be Frozen 3.
Speaker:So it's it's very much kind of like.
Speaker:The greatest hits of licensing,
Speaker:when you're talking about another
Speaker:Frozen, another Shrek, but it's
Speaker:great to see, you know, Bluey
Speaker:getting, her first film as well.
Speaker:Nice, that's exciting.
Speaker:The last one is like, let's say
Speaker:an operator is is listening to that,
Speaker:wants to get into the the licensing
Speaker:game, never did anything before.
Speaker:Like, what is their first action
Speaker:that they should do, like next week,
Speaker:without anything else.
Speaker:I might use this to plug my
Speaker:Learn to License course.
Speaker:You know, I get contacted so often
Speaker:with people, companies of all shapes
Speaker:and sizes, that want to learn about
Speaker:licensing, and they always say,
Speaker:"Oh, I just want a 15-minute call.
Speaker:I just have some questions
Speaker:to ask," and I can't say yes
Speaker:to everybody, or else I wouldn't
Speaker:get any work done of my own.
Speaker:So instead, I created this
Speaker:course, the Learn to License course.
Speaker:And it's six sessions, about 15
Speaker:to 20 minutes each session,
Speaker:and it's like masterclass,
Speaker:but it's my own version of that.
Speaker:I filmed it in a proper studio.
Speaker:It's got real examples.
Speaker:It's really well done, and
Speaker:within, you know, a couple of
Speaker:hours of of if you dedicate
Speaker:time to do that course, I think
Speaker:at the moment the price is only
Speaker:99 dollars, so it's really good
Speaker:value.
Speaker:You will learn more.
Speaker:In that course than you would
Speaker:spending time with me
Speaker:because it's everything.
Speaker:It's a very thought through
Speaker:course about what licensing is all
Speaker:about from somebody that's never
Speaker:done licensing before.
Speaker:So I would say that that
Speaker:is absolutely the best resource
Speaker:anybody can have.
Speaker:And if you're thinking about
Speaker:licensing, that should be the first
Speaker:thing that you do next week.
Speaker:And where should people find you?
Speaker:So you can listen to my
Speaker:podcast Born to License.
Speaker:It's on all of The anywhere that
Speaker:you really listen to your podcast,
Speaker:we're also on YouTube, so
Speaker:Born to License on YouTube.
Speaker:I'm pretty big on LinkedIn, so
Speaker:come find me, David Born.
Speaker:Surname is B O R N.
Speaker:I'm also on Instagram, David Born,
Speaker:but instead of an O, it's a zero.
Speaker:And then you can find everything
Speaker:about me on my personal website,
Speaker:including my personal blog,
Speaker:which is thedavidborn.com.
Speaker:So there's lots of places
Speaker:that you can see what I'm up to.
Speaker:David, really
Speaker:appreciate you hopping on.
Speaker:Really enjoyed it.
Speaker:Thanks, Andrej.
Speaker:Appreciate the chat.
Speaker:One thing to take from this.
Speaker:Licensing isn't a shortcut.
Speaker:It's a second engine that you build onto a business that already works.
Speaker:If yours does, there's a version where a fan base someone else spent 75 years building
Speaker:shows up for your product.
Speaker:And you pay for it by the sale, not by the click.
Speaker:Start with a license nobody's fighting over.
Speaker:Not the one on your mood board.
Speaker:If this was useful, follow the show and send it to one person that needs it.
Speaker:See you on the next one.
